The Liberty Blog

May 30, 2008

Same Sex Marriage Threatens Religious Liberty

By Alan J. Reinach

In theory, allowing homosexual couples to marry should not threaten anyone’s religious freedom. Although the social and moral implications of gay marriage are apparent to many, few realize the significant danger posed to religious freedom by the California Supreme Court ruling in May giving gays a constitutional right to marry. The Court’s decision now elevates homosexuality to the same legal status as race, a protected class. This Court has refused to grant religious freedom the same status as a fundamental right, instead expressing doubt about the free exercise of religion and ruling against religious freedom consistently in a series of decisions over the past fifteen years. The net result is a legal imbalance where gay rights enjoy maximum protection, and the rights of individual religious conscience enjoy very little protection.

It is important to reiterate at the outset of this discussion that while the Seventh-day Adventist Church upholds the biblical teachings on sexual morality — that sexual intimacy is a gift of God to be reserved for the marriage relation between a man and a woman – we also uphold the biblical doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ – that He died as an atoning sacrifice for all who would accept Him by faith. The love of God is not exclusive. Hence, this discussion of the conflict between gay rights and religious freedom is not intended as an attack on gays, nor should the problems posed by gay marriage give rise to hostility or prejudice against gays. 

Massachusetts was the first state to approve gay marriage. Thereafter, Boston required adoption agencies to serve gays. Although Catholic Charities accounted for most of the adoptions in the city, no accommodation was offered for their religious objections to placing children with gay couples. Catholic Charities made the difficult decision to close down its adoption services, which had a devastating impact on children in Boston. This was completely unnecessary. Other adoption agencies could have provided the needed services to those gays who sought to adopt. Boston could have chosen to respect the rights of conscience of Catholic Charities, while also providing adoption services to gays. It did not have to be a “zero sum game,” with a winner and a loser. The price of Boston’s rigid adherence to political correctness is that thousands of children who need to be placed in adoptive homes will be delayed indefinitely, and will languish in foster care. What a tragedy!  

The experience of Catholic Charities in Boston is an ominous warning about the risks faced by many religious organizations. It is important to understand that the goal is to equate the religious moral position regarding homosexuality as the equivalent of racism. This was evident in the arguments presented to the California Supreme Court in the case. The opening argument criticized the domestic partnership system as an unacceptable “separate but equal” approach, akin to racially segregated public schools that were the subject of the historic Brown v. Board of Education decision in 1954. When Bob Jones University was accused of racism for its policy against inter racial dating, it lost its tax exempt status.  There is little doubt that the tax exemption of churches and religious institutions will eventually be challenged on grounds that policies, practices and teachings regarding homosexuality violate public policy, just as Bob Jones’ dating policy did. Some of us have seen this coming ever since the Bob Jones case was decided in the early 1980s.

The hostility to individual conscience was evident in arguments presented to the California Supreme Court earlier this week in a case pitting the rights of a lesbian couple to receive artificial insemination services from a medical clinic against the rights of Christian doctors to refuse to provide services in violation of their conscience. Lawyers representing the lesbian couple argued that there simply is no religious defense to such discrimination. In other words, if they can prove discrimination, there is no balancing of the rights of conscience. The rights of conscience have no legal standing. The L.A. Times headline indicated that the court seemed likely to rule against the doctors. No court has yet considered the facts of this case, or whether the lesbian couple could have obtained the services in a timely manner without requiring these Christian doctors to violate their beliefs. But no such “win win” compromise is desirable to those advocating for “equality rights” of gays. Instead, equality must completely trump liberty.

According to lawyers for the doctors with whom I have discussed this case, the doctors informed their patients at the outset as to the limitations of the services they were willing to provide. They also informed the patients that should additional services be required, they would refer them to an alternate provider, and even pay any added costs incurred should the insurance not fully cover them. These were not emergency services, and the doctors claim to have acted responsibly to insure that their patients were able to obtain the services they desired in a timely manner. But none of this is relevant to the Court, or to those advocating for the patients. They want to destroy the rights of conscience. They insist on a ruling that religion doesn’t count at all, and that every business provider must serve gays, regardless of their religious beliefs.

The same law at issue in this case, the Unruh Civil Rights Act, is the subject of a pending case against Lutheran High School, challenging the expulsion of two lesbian students from a religious school. The trial court held that the Unruh Act does not apply to private schools, but the ruling has been appealed. You can readily see the problem should the courts decide that Unruh should apply to private and religious schools. Christian schools will lose the right to discipline students for sexual misconduct with others of the same sex.

The absurdity of the “equality” argument comes into sharp focus in this scenario. Consider that a Christian school could expel two heterosexual students for sexual misconduct without exposing itself to legal liability, but could not expel homosexual students for the same offense. This is what it means for gays to become a protected class. Instead of achieving equality, they achieve a superior status in society. A religious school would be able to fire a teacher for garden variety adultery, but it would be illegal to fire a gay teacher for the same offense. 

Barry Bussey, Director of Public Affairs & Religious Liberty for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada, has written most insightfully about this conflict between “equality” and religious freedom in the book: Politics and Prophecy.”  The gay community has made “equality” the primary value, and has elevated it above liberty in general, and religious freedom in particular. The faith community has rejected this extreme view of “equality,” but has been equally hostile to the rights of gays. Bussey has thoughtfully analyzed the “winner-take-all” attitude of both sides in the marriage debate, in seeking to determine whether there was any hope of a middle ground, where the rights of gays and churches could co-exist. His conclusion was not optimistic.

Although we have long assumed that religious liberty enjoys a preferred status as a fundamental constitutional right, this has not been true either in California or the United States Supreme Court for nearly two decades. The Supreme Court practically discarded the First Amendment’s protection for the free exercise of religion as a “luxury that a well ordered society can no longer afford” in an infamous 1990 decision, Employment Division v. Smith. Although California has not explicitly followed suit, the California Supreme Court has ruled against religious liberty consistently, in a series of cases since 1995.

In 1995, the Court held that Evelyn Smith’s Presbyterian faith was not a good enough reason to refuse to rent one of her four duplex apartments to an unmarried [heterosexual] couple, despite the fact that in the same city of Chico, the State University maintained hundreds of units of housing exclusively for married couples. Such hostility to religious freedom interests has been the consistent theme of court rulings in California.

Californians will have the opportunity to reaffirm that marriage consists of a man and a woman  in November, when a constitutional marriage amendment is expected to appear on the ballot. Although such a constitutional amendment may resolve the immediate issue of marriage, if successful, by reversing the court’s decision upholding gay marriage, it will do nothing to change the legal status of homosexuality as a fundamental right, given preferred status in California over the right to practice one’s faith.

There is an ancient Chinese curse: “may you live in interesting times.” It was considered a curse, because peace and prosperity were preferred over instability and excitement. Hold on for the ride! There is likely to be considerable turbulence ahead for religious liberty! Your support of the North American Religious Liberty Association, and our efforts to preserve liberty of conscience is needed now more than ever!   

 

           

 

 


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186 Comments

Heather — May 30, 2008 @ 12:38 pm

I am not someone immediately effected by any of these decisions, but I just wanted to thank you for affirming God’s love and offer of salvation to EVERYONE. I am so tired but the hate I see coming from many in the Christian community. May we see God’s love for all of us in these interesting times!


Marsha — May 30, 2008 @ 12:53 pm

I understand your concern that religious institutions might not be able to discipline or adequately regulate regarding issues of homosexuality. I actually had never thought of that. On another point, although I believe that homosexuality is a sin and don’t agree in same-sex marriage, I would not vote for a Constitutional Amendment that states marriage is only between a man and a woman. I think at that point, we have used the constitution as a weapon rather than as a document that extends rights, usually to those in the minority - not just minority race, but minority voting ability and influence. This can later be a detriment to our religious liberty b/c they will start having Constitutional amendments that could eat away at our religious liberty and then we will have no reprieve. But back to your concern about gay rights trumping religious liberty rights, I think that’s a huge issue and concern and now that you have brought that up, I think we need to follow this issue closely as it seems to have a great impact on our church and our religious beliefs.


AJ — May 31, 2008 @ 2:34 pm

Interesting insight into the latest ruling in CA. Thank you for shedding some light from the big picture.

These ARE interesting times. We the people have to choose, now, whether or not to be habitually active in our church and country, or to just sit back and let others make the decisions. But if there was any time in the history of mankind to be active in society, that time is now.

This latest issue just shows us the latest attack on equality, and liberty. It is time to train ourselves to start making a consistent difference in this divided country, and the world, while remembering that without the love and sanity that comes with a true relationship with Jesus Christ, we can do nothing.


Delroy — May 31, 2008 @ 6:43 pm

Are we passive in our effort to have the courts recognize religious rights? Should we look at the method used by gays and lesbians to obtain their rights? One wonders if the divisive voice of the “church is the problem to the courts not hearing the call to pass religious rights?


Sonja DeWitt — May 31, 2008 @ 8:29 pm

Excellent analysis Alan. This is indeed a very disturbing development. I think in some ways the response of the church to the gay marriage issue has been self-defeating, as it generally focuses on the moral and social implications of gay marriage, causing us to appear to be gay-bashing, instead of focusing on the issue of religious rights, which is really where our focus should be.

Even the issue of Liberty a couple years ago which focused on the gay marriage issue took the moral instead of the legal and constitutional approach, which I felt was really beside the point.

I think we as a church need to come up with a serious, well-thought-out strategy to publicly address the real issue and dispel any impression that we harbor animosity toward gays, as opposed to even-handedly opposing sin of all types.


Marsha — May 31, 2008 @ 8:56 pm

Good point, Sonja.


Todd, Castle Rock — June 1, 2008 @ 12:33 am

Another great article by Alan J. Reinach. Gay rights are sweeping across the world, and our United States, and also sweeping aside our freedoms. The legislation that protects perversion and punishes those who stand strong against this immorality will only sink our nation deeper into chaos and lawlessness. May God help us. I never thought that I would live to see the day that all this would happen.


Darlyne Jarrett — June 1, 2008 @ 8:30 am

It makes me sad to see our Country going down the tube just as Sodom did in Bible times. When we disregard the principles of the Bible, we can only expect curses to be upon us. God gave us marriage between a man and a woman in Eden, not between same-sexes. And God never condemns us for something we can’t help. So, I don’t buy this “born this way” stuff. I believe it all boils down to “as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.” I certainly believe we should love these people, but we should not love the sin. According to the Bible, this type of behavior is an abomination to God, so how can we as Christians allow it to be sanctioned.

And, in regard to equality, the courts seem not to be worrying about that from a religious liberty standpoint. Your article is very insightful. Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention. I had not realized what was really going on in regard to the two issues. Certainly, no doctors, adoption agencies or anyone else should be required to go against their consciences.


Mike — June 1, 2008 @ 12:45 pm

I believe that the CA court ruling and the more recent unilateral decision by Gov. Patterson to recognize same sex marriage in NY are dangerous precedents against our democracy. In both cases, the will of the people was completely ignored. In the CA case, 4 individuals frauduently claimed it was against the Consitition od the state of CA. Yet, there is no mention in the state Constitution of the issue. In addition, poll after poll and a state referrendum showed that the people (the taxpayers) were against same sex marriage. In NY, the situation is even more alarming. Here, the chief executive of the state has usurped the legislative branch and imposed by fiat what he desires. Again, polls suggest most NY’ers are against same sex marriage. The concern here and this should be even for the supporters pf same sex marriage is what is the next issue the activist courts and emperor like Governors decisde to impose on us. Do we become like China-where the government says you can only have one child? This issue demands that the people stand up and reclaim their poweer. If you live in NY let Emperor Patterson know you are dismayed not because of the actual decision, but the process he used to take away your rights. Let us hope that CA puts the issue to a state wide Constitutional Ammendment and again let the people decide.


Sherril — June 3, 2008 @ 5:57 pm

This is something I have been expecting for some time. It is not a surprise that this has become an issue of ‘rights’ and elevated status above society. The homosexual community is not wanting to be accepted as a part of society — they are demanding to be ABOVE society. I know that God gives everyone — every sinner — an advocate with the Father and salvation is open to all. We can embrace that and preach that while calling for adherance to God’s definitions of morality and marriage. Silence in this hour of earth’s history is not golden. We may lose the right to choose — we may be forced to comply with a court system that is usurping our basic rights and principals, with no higher governmental authority to answer to. The courts have set themselves above the Constitution(s)and the will of society.

We must be firm in our commitment to God and His law of love. He died so that we might have a choice. With choices come responsibilities, as well as consequences. Your local church could see the day when having a Marriage seminar that was not open to homosexuals could cause you to lose your church. Or how about this — a homosexual couple insisting it is their right to have their ‘marriage’ performed in your church? How long before this becomes a real issue and puts us in jeopardy of losing our property and our statis as a ‘recognized’ religion?

This should be a wake up call to every church member of every denomination. Time is short.


Darrell K. Whitfield — June 3, 2008 @ 6:05 pm

Although a sabbath keeper that believes in the second coming of the Messiah literally, but not a Seventh Day Adventist, who also has struggled with same sex feelings it is disheartening to see sabbath keepers take their stand along lines of traditional marriage rather than scriptural marriage. I am speaking of polygamy and the recent FLDS situation. If we make marriage constitutionally one man + one woman as the Religeous Right wants us to then we will go against what the Scriptures actually teach. While I do not want to practice polygamy myself I can not put my opinion above the Word of the Creator Yahu’ah which permits but does not promote polygamy(one man, more than one woman). These are my concerns with the constitutional marriage amendments.

On the issue of homosexual marriage the Word says it is an abomination. Most Americans commit abomonations every day when they eat breakfast with sausage and bacon. One the other hand if this is allowed and the body of Messiah is not allowed to practice what the Book teaches then our religeous freedom is effected as the article points out. We need to do what we can to make sure that Scriptural marriage one man with the opposite sex is protected and same sex marriage is veiwed for what it is unscriptural with guarentees of freedom of faith for all in hiring, who goes to our schools etc….


Byron Comp — June 3, 2008 @ 6:09 pm

To Alan, et al:
These are not just “interesting times,” they are “end times!” We have been warned repeatedly in the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy, that these kinds of things, rampant homosexuality and other forms of perversions would become the norm just before Christ’s Second Coming. Rather than fearing them, we should be doing what Christ instructed us, as recorded in Luke 21:28 “Therefore when all these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh.”
I’m not at all discouraged or saddened when I see these prophecies being fulfilled all around us. I’m overjoyed! My Saviour is about to return and take me home to live with Him! Amen & Amen!


Kae — June 3, 2008 @ 6:36 pm

An excellent commentary and explanation of the facts by Alan. At the risk of sounding indifferent - this is just the tip of the iceberg. In my country, the term Husband & Wife does not legally exist. That opens up a whole host of possibilities. Homosexuality is just the beginning. We, as beleivers in Yeshua, must be grounded in the word of YWVH. History will repeat itself, we know this - so it is time to look up and lift up our heads….


SY — June 3, 2008 @ 6:57 pm

I re-read the Holy Bible from KJV, NIV & International Child’s Bible….. In Genesis 1:7 said of MAN becoming a living person. Then 1:22, made a WOMAN , and brought HER unto the MAN.
That message speaks of two different sexes, MALE AND FEMALE.
So, then what does God say about Homosexual? God actually didn’t call it Homosexual but SAME SEX.
Okay, let’s see what God says…
Romans 1:26-28….For this cause God GAVE THEM UP into DISGUSTING AFFECTIONS: for even their WOMEN did change the natural use into that WHICH IS AGAINST NATURE. And LIKEWISE ALSO the MEN, LEAVING the NATURAL USE OF woman, burned in their luset one toward another; MEN WITH MEN working that which is SHAMEFUL AND RECEIVING in themselves that PENALTY OF THEIR ERROR which was due.
AIDS…. many kinds of sex diseases…. which are the penalty and also… punishment of eternal fire as an example for all to see (Jude 1:7)
Nothing unclean or who does SHAMEFUL things or tells LIES will ever go into God’s city (in Heaven), Revelation 21:27
God’s son, Jesus Christ came here for the purpose: to destroy the devil’s work (1 John 3:7-8)
Same sex relationshop is part of devi’s work. Pretty obvious??!?


John — June 3, 2008 @ 6:57 pm

I appreciate and respect the fine work that Alan Reinach has done in examining the legal precedents that are being set with California’s most recent ruling on same sex marriage. However, I am disturbed that we make statements like, “I know we need to love everyone” and feel as if that is the extent of our Christian responsibility to our homosexual brothers and sisters. When I look at Jesus, I see that he spent his time with, and made friends with sinners. In fact, as far as I can tell, Jesus came to say that his kingdom was pretty much for sinners. I find it sad what we pass off as “loving” homosexuals. I think God’s love for us is best seen in His gift of free choice, even when we used that free choice to kill his son. How can we claim to be believers in Christ, and yet so actively advocate for inferior rights for our fellow Americans, and sons and daughters of God? I don’t want to step on anybody’s toes, but what’s wrong with a little religious discrimination. It seems to me, that the body of Christ usually does OK during times of persecution.


carol r — June 3, 2008 @ 7:06 pm

vengance Is mine Saith the LORD


Larry M — June 3, 2008 @ 7:07 pm

Since this is not a Theocracy, how do we as believers address this moral issue. Someone above in a blog said this is a Democracy. It is not a democracy, it is a republic under the rule of law, not what the masses want. Does the Constitution give the right to gay marriage? We do not have constitutional rights. The constitution was made to protect our Natural Law rights given to us by the Almighty. On the other side is Positivism. The government knows what is good for us. We have all been given the right to choose. No doubt that morally & biblicaly, homosexuality is wrong, ie, marriage. Pray the Spirit moves us aright.


Gheorghe — June 3, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

I am puzzled why would anyone spend time and energy agonizing over the gay marriage issue. I hope your motivation is not political or an attempt to influence the way Christians will vote in November’s presidential election. Although I do not agree with the gay agenda or their right to marry, I believe we are wasting precious time arguing this point. We live in a sinful world and what we are witnessing should not surprise any of us who reads the Bible. You probably think this is a moral issue and your convictions are so deep that you cannot be silent. If that is the case, how about speaking out against an immoral war? How about sending young people to die in a war based on deceit? How many of the Christian leaders took a public position on this issue? Is the death of 4000 plus Americans less immoral or appalling than two homosexuals getting married or adopting an abandoned child? I strongly believe that this is just a diversionary tactic to keep Christians busy and divided with gay issues. I am wondering if we are spending to much time on “safe moral issues” and afraid to confront what really matters, saving lives on this earth and for Christ.


Michael DePaula — June 3, 2008 @ 8:05 pm

I hate to be the voice of dissent here, but as a former SDA, now atheist, I suppose that will be inevitable. Not that that should matter. Many Christians and even Adventist Christians would disagree with your statements (my sister, still an Adventist and also a lesbian would, included).

Alan, while I appreciate your attempt to make some sense of “the changing times”, this really is a civil rights issue. The question the courts ask is, if reversed, would the plaintiffs be granted standing? That is, if a heterosexual couple brought the same case to court would it be a violation of their rights as human beings in a marriage contract with each another? In Evelyn Smith’s case, no, there is no reason (and violates a good secular one) to deny a homosexual couple a room.

Put differently, what you are arguing is that Evelyn Smith (in this example), because her religion tells her that God hates homosexuality, she must therefore be allowed to practice her God-sanctioned anti-homosexuality and keep homosexuals from renting an apartment. How would this be any different from her being allowed to deny a black couple a room if she believes that God’s book describes blacks as inferiors? It isn’t and you must necessarily resort to disagreeing with her “interpretation” of a book in order to maintain your position.

One’s sexual orientation is a protected class and it is refreshing to see States come around in recognizing that. One’s sexual orientation is not a choice they make and such tired arguments do injustice to any person who holds them.

Likewise, religion is NOT a protected class, nor should it be. One’s religion (if held at all) is a matter of instruction by parents, family and perhaps the community at large to which they belong. It is malleable. Children are not “Christian children” but “the children of Christian parents” because we recognize that they have not attained the ability to distinguish between the available choices. Even within the church, the notion of the “age of accountability” pervades since people seem to intuitively understand that cognitive abilities must precede life-altering choices.

If we could ask, “On what secular grounds does the state have to allow active discrimination against homosexuality by any agents that deliver its services?” and the answer is, “None. Only on religious grounds,” then the secular interest must prevail.

Furthermore, there is no reason for the state to allow active discrimination against homosexuality by any private organization either. The “separate but equal” argumentation was accurate in that it was the prevailing belief of the religious in the mid-20th century. Nevertheless, it was struck down because religious conscience does not override the public interest.

This is another way of saying that “Rights of conscience” is not a trump-all defense for any action you believe your religion allows you perform. It must be tempered by the secular constitution.

You shifted the focus of your post around such that ultimately, the potentially good point you set out to make became turbid. What, then, is the reason you have to deny protected status to sexual orientation? Your example of sexual misconduct at a parochial school is laughable since it is the school that sets the “standard” of sexual misconduct to begin with. The state has no such need. That the state would only become interested if two homosexual students were expelled can hardly be the fault of the state since the law protecting sexual orientation was necessary to protect homosexuals from religious discrimination in the first place. Were the roles reversed, you can be sure that the State would step in to protect the rights of heterosexual couples in “homosexual-only” institutions were they ever to exist.

Ultimately, Christians who believe in a literal need to follow Mosaic laws in an ancient holy book (and strangely stress one in particular over all others) will go the way of Christians who really believe that this world was specially created 6000 years ago or that slavery is sanctioned by God: they will continue to exist but will exist in scarcity because their arguments require them to accept other equally absurd notions that are readily contradicted by reality.


Ben — June 3, 2008 @ 8:20 pm

Thanks for the informative article Mr. Reinach. Knowing we will lose our liberties will never be an excuse to not fight for them. Glory to God that He has given us the ability to stand in the gap and defend all soul’s rights to freedom of conscience. There is a more sure word of prophecy that all would do well to take heed to as a light that shineth in a dark place (from 2 Peter 1:19). If only more could see the darkness they are choosing to enshroud themselves in. Let us bear the light that has been gifted us and some will come to the view and warmth of Jesus, to the glory of Him forever.


Evelyn Caro — June 3, 2008 @ 8:29 pm

“Interesting times,” indeed…That may not be such a curse as it seems, if it forces one to think honestly and even confront one’s own demons as times of peace and prosperity do not…

Romans 1:18 through 2:1 shows the inexorable deterioration of human behavior apart from God, and ends with the chilling rebuke: “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” The human tendency to cherry-pick the sins we are more likely to harbor in our hearts and practice is fatal here; like it our not, each one of us is susceptible to each one of these sins. One no less that the Holy Spirit has gently led me to the realization of–all!–these elements within my own character; though some I think are weaker–bowing to images of animals doesn’t interest me much at this point, and slander and gossip arouse my utter disgust as I’ve been a target of them–but (deep breath, here we go), this married mother of four about two-thirds heterosexual, about one-third same-sex attracted. I tried to type “homosexual,” but as I’ve never practiced, it seemed most honest, or accurate at least, to use the alternate description. I need God’s grace, folks; I’m a sinner. Would that we all could see this plain truth about ourselves with the grace of God sustaining us, shielding us from the mockery of Satan and his servants, and turning to the Lord as our only source of help.

Therefore, re the issue of same-sex marriage, I consider it wrong for any church which claims, anyway, that the Bible is the alpha and omega of faith and practice. In a secular society, however, and in alternative faiths where homosexuality is not a moral issue, I am in full support of gay civil or faith unions. I have no desire whatsoever to assume the role of Sex Police to my neighbor, and do not believe that God requires it of me. Indeed, I believe that by refraining from interference in the private affairs of my neighbor, I am fulfilling the Divine command, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” This type of behavior may even diffuse some of the hatred engendered by the emerging “image of the beast,” which like its prototype is so ready to inflict penalties on its dissenters. It is a masterpiece of Satan that he uses moral issues to engender tyranny, slandering and disgracing the Jesus Who is “altogether lovely,” and loving. Indeed, whether or not gay marriage becomes legal in California or anywhere else, Satan is intelligent enough to bring about the demise of civil and religious liberty from either the permissive or the tyrannizing angle. Our job remains what it always was: To get God’s message of love for this time to ALL His beautiful, perishing children as quickly as we can.


Michel MACE — June 3, 2008 @ 8:29 pm

Thank you so much, Gheorghe. I agree 200% with you.
Not one sermon against WAR since March 18, 2003 in the churches I attended. Why?
They will tell you, “Adventists should not do into politics.”
_
Oh yes, that’s right we need to protect our “image”, not preaching against sin.
Protecting the image of the church instead of evangelizing, this has been the orientation of the church since 1956 with the publication of “Questions on Doctrine”, which brought the “new theology” and more in the church.


Susan — June 3, 2008 @ 9:00 pm

God is always just and true and fair.
God loves sinners.
God hates sin.
God is the ultimate judge.
Love will win in the end.


J Madden — June 3, 2008 @ 9:13 pm

Your nice statements regarding not giving “rise to hostility” notwithstanding, your argument here IS an exercise in prejudice against gays. Prejudice being defined as pre-judging, without sufficient knowledge, an entire class of people based on stereotypes and intolerance. That you and others use the bible to attempt to justify the prejudice does not diminish it BEING prejudice.

You are correct that the Court’s decision elevates homosexuality the same legal status as race, a protected class. It should! Homosexuals have been persecuted throughout the ages, even murdered, and therefore deserve to have the same rights as other “protected classes”, such as white people, not to be persecuted and murdered and for the same reasons.

To demonstrate the prejudice displayed in your argument, permit me to replace the word “gay” with “black” in one of your paragraphs to demonstrate the point:

“Massachusetts was the first state to approve black marriage. Thereafter, Boston required adoption agencies to serve blacks. Although Catholic Charities accounted for most of the adoptions in the city, no accommodation was offered for their religious objections to placing children with black couples. Catholic Charities made the difficult decision to close down its adoption services, which had a devastating impact on children in Boston. This was completely unnecessary. Other adoption agencies could have provided the needed services to those blacks who sought to adopt. Boston could have chosen to respect the rights of conscience of Catholic Charities, while also providing adoption services to blacks. It did not have to be a “zero sum game,” with a winner and a loser. The price of Boston’s rigid adherence to political correctness is that thousands of children who need to be placed in adoptive homes will be delayed indefinitely, and will languish in foster care. What a tragedy!”

One word change demonstrates the entire problem with your argument.

Bob Jones University was a precedent because Bob Jones University was being racist! That you “saw it coming” implies that you feel their policy on inter-racial dating is somehow okay. I sincerely hope that is not the case as that would be patently supporting racism.

If some Christians had treated gays with unilateral respect and given them the same rights they deserve as human beings, then this “elevated class” issue never would have come up at all. It is through some Christian’s assertions that gays be treated as separate and unequal that affords them status. The very same status that heterosexuals enjoy, I might add. I say “some Christians” because it is important to note that not ALL Christians believe as you do, some actually believe in Christian love, first.

Gays have not been given an “extreme view of equality” as you say, they have merely been given the same equality and gained some minor side benefits. The “extreme” was the persecution that existed before and was tolerated.

That religious liberty is under assault in other ways, does not mean that this was a bad law, nor that this shouldn’t have been ruled the way it did. Each case should be judged on its merits independently and this case went the right way, towards increased liberties. You see, Christians are not losing their liberties, they are losing the ability to persecute and divide based on one interpretation of scripture(s). The ruling is actually a net increase in overall liberty, through the granting of the freedom to marry that the gays rightly deserve to share with the rest of us. That there MAY BE minor exceptions (eg ejecting teenagers for sexual conduct) does not make the net benefit of freedom to marry any less.

Marriage is not only a spiritual construct but is also a legal one. It is the latter that the new ruling is addressing under the very division of church and state that you appear to be advocating.
Your religious liberty does not afford you the right to treat ANYONE as second-class citizens. Many churches used religious arguments in the past to maintain slavery, one would hope we had gotten past that lesson long ago, but apparently we need to do it again. That blacks gained some “special status”, including such outcomes as the Bob Jones debacle, need hardly be questioned as the right outcome. Likewise gays need to be granted the same civil liberties as the rest of us.


Larry M — June 3, 2008 @ 9:24 pm

In Pauls time & the other Scripture writers, homosexual pedophelia, sex with slaves, & abortion was legal & rampant. In most cases you do not hear Paul or any other writer address those issues. Paul did talk about sexual sin & treating slaves right. I haven’t seen in any writings of getting into the political fray 7 changing laws. What was stressed was preaching the gospel about how our precious Savior, through the power of the Eternal Spirit, can recreate us & give us new propensities & desires by Him living in us. Our Savior is at the doorstep. Are we getting caght up in a sideshow? The three angels messages is the last message to the world. May the Spirit guide & direct our minds to have discernment & wisdom. I, like others, am appalled how so called Christians belittle sinners, kill those who they think the Almighty hates, whether it be abortion doctors or homosexuals. It is written,”They will kill you thinking they are doing Elohims work.” Forgive us all for our hate & prejudices. May we get to the point of hating sin with a perfect hatred & love the sinner.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 3, 2008 @ 10:32 pm

I praise the Lord for so many comments from our congregations to stand up against Allen’s statements. His bucket has more than one hole in it. Rather than repeat the many great comments against the stand that our Religious Liberty Association takes, I want to carry them a bit further. I praise God for our new president Paulsen in trying to overcome them.

I am a celibate gay SDA, and my partner of 37 years and I started an SDA approved outreach ministry in San Francisco to homosexuals about ten years ago. (www.GodsRainbow.org). Sadly, our church simply is not ready for it because of the prejudices and fears of it as witnessed by Alan, which continually strengthen those of our church.

Overall, I am against the Religious Liberty Association in general, because it theoretically tries to support the separation of church and state, and then USES politics to do so! Not only is this association harmful to our church, but the time and funds it spends could be put to a much better use – namely, evangelical. Christ’s last command to us was to spread His Word, not to become politicians trying to protect the Word – God will do that as is necessary.

Back in 2002, Alan spoke out against California’s AB1080 bill, which was the homosexual community’s attempt to gain these rights WITHOUT using marriage to do so. In my eyes, Alan displayed a total lack of Christianity in his statements which he published on his website also.

Please read the following statement he published, and see if you don’t find a close resemblance to his stand today. At that time, I pointed out that the main apparent reason he did not want domestic partners employed by the SDA church, to have a right to the same benefits that a heterosexual couple receives, was for monetary reasons. Face it! Our church decided to accept government funds for our hospitals and schools, therefore the church has to live up to state law in order to receive the funds, or simply refuse the funds! The church cannot have it both ways. It is apparently okay to hire gays to work especially in the hospitals, but not to pay them equally! Is that Christian?

Alan, why don’t you close your shop, and go out and tell non-Christians about Christ, instead of turning people against our church? Are you trying to delay His second coming? Let us do our work, even bringing gays into our flock, and allow God to do His work.

—- copy follows —-
August 8, 2002

LEGISLATIVE E.LERT

“Domestic Partner” Bill Threatens Seventh-day Adventist Institutions

A bill introduced late in the session is moving rapidly through the legislature, posing an unusual threat to Seventh-day Adventist colleges and hospitals. AB 1080 (Kehoe) would require all contractors doing business with California to provide the full range of employee benefits to “domestic partners.” Seventh-day Adventist church policies clearly preclude granting recognition to same sex couples or providing them with benefits. Indeed, both state and federal law permit churches to make faith-based employment decisions, including discipline of employees for sexual misconduct.
AB 1080 would give California officials the power to cut off CalGrant funds from students attending Seventh-day Adventist colleges. It would also threaten MediCal reimbursements to our hospitals for services provided to the poor. Without such state funding, the survival of these institutions will be at risk.
It is ironic that in the name of human rights and equality, the bill tramples on rights of conscience and belief. Christian businesspersons and social service providers, as well as religious institutions, will be coerced into violating sincerely held religious beliefs. By providing these benefits, contractors would be required to implicitly endorse conduct in which they do not believe.
The Seventh-day Adventist church has largely stayed out of the public policy battles over gay rights. In this case, however, we cannot remain on the sideline when the effort to provide benefits to gays threatens the rights of conscience and religious freedom.

—- end of copy —-

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


James L. — June 3, 2008 @ 10:46 pm

The problem with postmodern theology is that it embraces both the sinner and the sin. The Gospel, on the other hand, says “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

Unfortunately, while many contemporary philosophers would have no trouble discerning the fallacy of a doctrine which would allow an embezzler to continue embezzling so long as they love God, they get bent out of shape when someone suggests that God calls sinners to repent and let the Spirit transform us from the inside out.

Although I disagree with Gheorghe’s position on homosexuality, I applaud what he says about war. In American politics, the left loves licentious sex while the right loves gratuitous violence. Jesus hates both, but loves all sinners and calls us all to repent. The church needs to do the same.


Elaine N. — June 3, 2008 @ 10:47 pm

This is not religious liberty, it is religious discrimination. No law is forcing anyone to marry someone of the same sex; no law is forcing a church to perform such a ceremony.

All the opponents of this equality for everyone is no different than those who condoned slavery, based on the Bible; who opposed interracial marriage; all these who were against integration in the schools, went against majority opinion. The beauty of our Constitution is that it is NOT based on majority opinion, in fact, it protects the minority.

No one’s marriage or religious belief is affected by the desire of homosexuals to have the same rights that all married couples enjoy. To deny any group, whether interracial or same sex, is to uphold inequality–in direct opposition to the belifs of our founders: that all men are created equal and have unalienable rights, including the pursuit of happiness–which marriage most assuredly is.


Michael DePaula — June 4, 2008 @ 12:12 am

It’s nice to see some of the commenters finally coming around.

To those of you who post on ad nauseum about “love the sinner, hate the sin” miss the point entirely. This is a secular nation built on the notion of equality. Arguing for or against a particular action based on your religious interpretations/beliefs has no place in the debate.

There is no “right” for you to treat anyone as second-class citizens, not even when your Bible says otherwise. Ironically, not even your Bible says this, so why do you insist on “hating the sin” by enacting legislation to enforce Biblical admonitions upon a Contstitutionally-protected public?


Beth Montgomery — June 4, 2008 @ 2:16 am

There can be no equating “race” and “homosexuality”, since only one of them involves making a choice. My gay nephew once made the comment to me “If they ever find a cure for AIDS, I plan on getting married and having children”. (He contracted AIDS many years ago). Alan’s editorial hits the mark exactly. I frankly am quite surprised at some of the incorrect remarks about what the Bible says or doesn’t say. Perhaps it would be well with everyone to read it more carefully. Keep up the good work, Alan. God is still in control of this earth, and that is the only thing that truly gives me peace and comfort. Awaiting his return..
Beth Montgomery


Tom Chatt — June 4, 2008 @ 2:21 am

I agree with Marsha above that it would be a mistake to advocate using California’s too-easy initiative constitutional amendment process to curtail fundamental rights. While you might be in moral agreement with this particular instance, it’s a bad precedent that could just as easily be used against religious liberty in the future. If you care about liberty, you should defend the constitution against majoritarian incursions against liberty.

I also agree with J Madden’s analysis above. Where exercise of conscience enters into the sphere of public accommodation and commerce, liberty must be balanced against equal treatment. It is helpful in these tricky cases to consider analogies, as J Madden suggests. Should we consider it acceptable for a Christian Scientist landlord to refuse to rent an apartment to an Adventist? Should an atheist doctor be allowed to refuse treatment to a Christian? Mr. Reinach needs to be careful where his principles may lead.


SoulPilgrim — June 4, 2008 @ 4:24 am

Marriage equality in no way threatens religious liberty, but it does threaten religious privilege, because it challenges the ability of religious people to use public funds–or the power of the state–to impose their beliefs on other people. I’m not surprised that Alan sees that as a loss of liberty. Loss of entitlement always feels like a loss of liberty to those who are in the habit of using public money to impose their medieval values on others.
A Christian physican who is asked to impregnate a lesbian woman should do some information-gathering about her situation, her partner, and so forth. The same information-gathering should also be done with a heteorosexual woman requesting that service, because impregnating a woman with a human life is not something to be done lightly. I would probably turn down many people, perhaps most. But to a true Christian, sexual orientation shouldn’t have anything to do with it.
A physician who won’t impregmate a woman SOLELY because of sexual preference should be free to refuse, but he/she shouldn’t be able to in any way benefit from public funds, and that means working at a hospital that receives it. You can’t have it both ways, anymore, folks. Society is getting wise to your game.
Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, and those writers in the Bible who condemned it were driven by the hate and ignorance of their day. Anybody with a quarter of a brain and an ounce of decency is not going to base their life on the insane prejudices of two thousand years ago, but on the timeless message of Jesus, and the social justice and equality he preached.
Face it, Christians, you’re finally losing your traditional entitlements. Maybe someday the only way you’ll be able to get converts is to actually start acting like Christians. But I won’t hold my breath. You’re much happier devising laws against people who are different than you, since that way you can use the power of the state to oppress others. You did it to Jews, Muslims, women, and each other. Kind of gotten to be a habit, hasn’t it?

A Christian Against Christiandom.
“Jesus, Save Us From Your Followers.”


Dez — June 4, 2008 @ 5:39 am

We all know the world will be manipulated into believing the real Christians are responsible for everything bad befalling it. Why study the science of how it will happen? It’s not as if you can prevent it. You may delay it a little at best. However, all the nonsense about having religion protected by law is still religion mixed with politics. Get out of the populist subjects and back to the bible. We merely give nore weight to the distractions of apostate protestantism by most of these discussions.


Brian — June 4, 2008 @ 8:56 am

Dear liberty blog, I believe this is going to infringe on churches that believes it is reserved for a man or a woman, and say we do not except them by the law of the land—since they are a race. But, I believe churches still have the total right to preserve the rights of marriage to a man and a woman accordance with biblical and righteous standards. We as SDA except the person for he or she is. We just do not conform to thus says man. But, thus says the Lord.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 4, 2008 @ 11:22 am

Beth Montgomery said: “There can be no equating “race” and “homosexuality”, since only one of them involves making a choice.”

Beth, homosexuality is not a choice. If you believe that it is, please describe the moment when you made the choice to be a heterosexual. If one is a choice, so is the other.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Byron Comp — June 4, 2008 @ 11:32 am

No Duke, I disagree with your assertion to Beth. We were created by God with the need for companionship (see Gen. 2) and that need was supplied by God’s creation of a partner of the opposite (NOT Same) sex. Homosexuality is a perversion of God’s creation, plain and simple.


Robert J. Bell — June 4, 2008 @ 11:36 am

What I see are the first steps in our Lord’s return. The question of marriage in this country has been asked for years, only now it is being asked in public. I see a day when we too will be required by law to marry same sex partners in our church or lose it. To me, the Gay Rights Movement is a major player in Satan’s political machinery. While not runninmg for any office, it is gaining more control daily. The joining of our nation with Rome is not the only thing that darkens our church’s future. The coming laws we will be forced to live under will make it difficult to stand up for the one true God. But stand we must.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 4, 2008 @ 12:10 pm

Byron, ALL sexual acts between persons other than a man and woman joined in matrimony, are a perversion of God’s creation. BUT, the temptation itself is neither a choice nor a sin in itself. It only becomes a sin when the temptation is acted upon. Our laws do not answer to God, only the people do. Our legal rights will never completely coincide with our religious beliefs, until the new earth, at which time I think that legal rights won’t be necessary.

At present however, we NEED legal rights to protect us from religious beliefs that we choose not to believe in. THAT choice is our choice to make, but unless God chooses to intervene, it is impossible to choose not to be tempted with Same Gender Attraction. If you are a heterosexual, I doubt if you can choose not to be tempted when observing a beautiful woman.

All homosexuals do not have sex with each other, but they all do have the same legal rights as heterosexuals do. They can live together for companionship, raise children, work, pay taxes, and are entitled to the same benefits of living as heterosexuals are. Not all Americans believe in the bible, and it is not Christian to force these beliefs on everyone - THAT would be the violation of separation between church and state.

The following is an excerpt from our website at GodsRainbow.org, which has not been dis-approved by any conference, all the way up to the General Conference.

“We believe that Same Gender Attraction is not a choice nor a sin in itself. We uphold the belief that God at Creation designed human sexuality to be expressed only in loving, mutually consenting acts between a man and a woman within the boundaries of marriage. We believe that it is the work of the Holy Spirit rather than human effort that should determine this conviction in persons. While we do not condone or approve acts or attitudes that are in violation of these principles, we recognize that it is not our right or responsibility to pry into private lives.” We cannot judge relationships, but neither can we recommend or approve of any relationship involving sexual intimacies other than within the marital relationship of a man and a woman. We believe that when those who experience Same Gender Attraction no longer feel rejected by the church and condemned by the Bible, sexual issues will not be such a big focus of their lives. We hope to accomplish this through the love of Jesus, and the warmth of our church family.”

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Terence M. Blackett — June 4, 2008 @ 12:25 pm

Jesus warned that the inhabitant of Sodom will sit up in judgment on this generation…

I guess things have got to get abysmally out of control for the sons of God to be revealed…

These things are only the beginnings of sorrows anyhow…

The final moves before the return of Jesus Christ to this world will be swift…

I still believe that the days must be shortened…

Just look at the condition of the Church….Forget what the world is doing!!!

The devil is on cue…It’s us who are lagging….


Dean Read — June 4, 2008 @ 12:36 pm

It seems that several commentators have missed the main point of Alan Reinach’s article. The main point is how religious liberty has not been given equal status while gay rights have been given equal, and even superior status. The point is that equal protection under the law has consistently been denied to religious groups. Of course, Atheists (and others who hate the clear teachings of the Bible which define what sin is) think that is fair; therefore, public school teachers are mandated to teach that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, which is contrary to the beliefs of many who attend public schools. Do we remember the other threat to religious liberty that California courts are still considering? That homeschoolers could be forced to enroll their children in such schools, if a recent court decision does not get reversed. How is that fair? Only to atheistic-minded people and others who do not mind that their children will be exposed to speculative human theories on man’s origins. Either humans were created in the image of God or they were not. The public school agenda has accepted and mandated that evolution must be taught as “truth.” Therefore, it forces the teaching that humans were not created in the image of God. There is no choice here. I Know. I taught science and math in Los Angeles public schools for 18 years. But again I ask, is that fair? Is that just? The answer is no. For some strange reason, the court rulings and public school agenda’s have both followed a path toward eradicating anything to do with protecting traditional religious rights. And yet these same two institutions have protected and promoted secularism. I would submit that secularism is a religion in its own right, and therefore, the courts have actually favored this form or religion over the more traditional forms. In fact, Secularism has its own supporters/members and website (advertising over 25,000 members) who adhere to a very religiously sounding doctrine, or fundamental beliefs. Obviously, this group called secularists (atheists) have their beliefs protected and promoted through court rulings such as the one establishing legal homosexual marriage in California. Notice, I did not say that it was wrong for the courts to establish a homosexual marriage legal precedent, and neither did Alan Reinach in his article. But I will say and agree with Alan Reinach that it is wrong to favor that group over other groups that do not agree with supporting that kind of lifestyle CHOICE. And yes, that lifestyle is a choice. Therefore, I believe Alan Reinach’s article is excellent food for thought. Instead of unfairly picking it apart with side issues, commentators should react to the main point and decide what we as Seventh-day Adventists should be doing about promoting and protecting religious liberty. It is time to speak out and “be ready in season and out of season to give a reason for the hope that is in you.”


Lena — June 4, 2008 @ 12:38 pm

God is not the author of confusion, anything outside the will of God is confusion, God does things decently and in order. There is no where in the Bible states that same sex marriage is right and the court of law has no right to go there. They are slowly chipping away by compromising God’s standards and they are going to surly be held accountable in the day of God’s judgement.

May God help us!!!


wanda — June 4, 2008 @ 1:04 pm

I do not agree with the law that just went threw in Ca, I try my best to as God askes of me, and the bible is very clear about gay lifestyle man shall not lay with man, women shall not lay with women, I try not to judge as that is for God to do, what I do is pray for them and if I get chance to talk to them I try to tell, show them what the bible has to say, so that their soul might be saved, this being the end days we know that things of this natural will be getting worse, as in the days of Noha


Gheorghe — June 4, 2008 @ 1:50 pm

Am I the only one in here who realizes that USA is a secular society? Moreover, to expect from such society to abide by God’s moral laws is not only ludicrous but also contra productive. Those who are calling on the government to protect our religious sensibilities against gay agenda might want to be careful what are they are asking for. As we all very well know, nothing good results when government became involved in religious social issues. Just remember that the same authorities that today, at your request, might protect you from the affliction of gay marriage laws, tomorrow will require you to worship on Sunday. We should leave the Pat Robertsons of this world to fight this fight; they are better at it, meaner and more malicious than we ever could be. Have a blessed day!


Byron Comp — June 4, 2008 @ 2:04 pm

Duke, in your God’sRainbow.org community, if a homosexual couple, now married, or not, comes to you and asks for membership within your group, do you inquire as to the “intimacy factor” before granting such membership? And if you learn that they are, indeed, intimate, do you suggest studies to reveal to them God’s true plan for their lives?

It sounds like you’re suggesting that, although God condemns homosexuality in His Word, He still places “same-sex attraction” into certain peoples genes, in direct opposition to His original creation. Is that what you’re suggesting? Isn’t that like saying that God has set some of us up for failure by instilling into our makeup that which can never be acceptable in His sight if acted upon? Yes, although I am happily married, I still struggle with impure thoughts about beautiful members of the opposite sex; but by God’s grace, He is giving me the victory over these thoughts. The difference is, those thoughts are the improper result, through sin, of the God-given, proper response of my genetic makeup for attraction to a member of the opposite sex, by which attraction God provided for pro-creation and mankind’s ability to “be fruitful and multiply, and replensih the earth.” The same cannot be said for the “same-sex attraction” to which you refer as being a part of your genetic makeup.
IMHO, when we say that the results of sin and Satan’s attempts at perverting God’s original design, whether that perversion be in the area of evolution vs. creation, Sunday observance vs. Sabbath celebrating, or homosexual vs. heterosexual attractions, whether we practice the perversions or not, are an acceptable way of life and should be viewed as such and not spoken against, not preached or taught against, and not legislated against, we do God a great dishonor and are as guilty of transgressing God’s laws as those who openly participate in such perversions.


J Madden — June 4, 2008 @ 2:09 pm

You are most definitely NOT the only one here that realizes that the USA is a secular society, and should remain that way.

As for the discussion of gayness being a “choice”, that is absurd. Scientific studies have demonstrated that there are environmental and biological conditions involved. There are plenty of examples of children knowing they are gay before their parents even did, or before they even hit puberty. They were hard wired from birth. Not all, mind you, sexual variation is both nature and nurture, but it is NOT solely nurture and/or “choice”.

It is literally ignorant to say that it is a “choice”.

For those that are so concerned about the world coming to an end because gay people marry, you may want to consider the thought that the apostles thought the world would end in THEIR time. If you’re going to worry about the end, you should probably worry about YOUR end, and not societies. After all, no one comes out of this alive. Society will most certainly continue if some loving couples tie the knot.


Carrol Grady — June 4, 2008 @ 3:18 pm

While I see a lot of ignorance displayed in many of these comments, particularly about “choice,” the thing that concerns me most is that Alan would like to legislate his religious views about this and make them apply to other Christians whose convictions lead them to a different conclusion. That, it seems to me, is the very opposite of our church’s traditional religious liberty stance. This California law is about the legal status of marriage and, as such, has no bearing on the religious status of marriage.

In a position statement on Reglious Freedom on the GC website, it says, “We will continue to cooperate and network with others to defend the religious liberty of ‘all people, including those with whom we may disagree’.”


Dean Read — June 4, 2008 @ 3:33 pm

Please do not take the word “choice” out of the context in which I used it. Homosexual LIFESTYLE is a choice. Choosing to act on one’s sexual desires is a choice, whether homo or hetero, whether within a marriage or outside of marriage, whether premarital or postmarital, whether in adultery or fornication or within the defined Biblical Law of God. Just as heterosexual intercourse outside marriage is condemned as sin, homosexual intercourse is always condemned as sin. To practice this is to practice sin. But let me remind you, that is not what Alan Reinach’s article was about. Read my previous comment and please stick to the main point, otherwise we bear no fruit by this discussion.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 4, 2008 @ 3:38 pm

Byron, we never even insinuated that God instilled anything sinful into our makeup - same sex attraction is the result of sin, as is any other sinful urge that we may have.

As Carol Grady, an expert on the subject pointed out, Alan is opposing rules for a CIVIL UNION, based upon religious beliefs. The government goofed when they adopted the term “marriage” for setting rules and benefits for two people bonding.

Byron, here is the rest of the paragraph from our ministry I quoted:

“We believe that Same Gender Attraction is not a choice nor a sin in itself. We uphold the belief that God at Creation designed human sexuality to be expressed only in loving, mutually consenting acts between a man and a woman within the boundaries of marriage. We believe that it is the work of the Holy Spirit rather than human effort that should determine this conviction in persons. While we do not condone or approve acts or attitudes that are in violation of these principles, we recognize that it is not our right or responsibility to pry into private lives.” We cannot judge relationships, but neither can we recommend or approve of any relationship involving sexual intimacies other than within the marital relationship of a man and a woman. We believe that when those who experience Same Gender Attraction no longer feel rejected by the church and condemned by the Bible, sexual issues will not be such a big focus of their lives. We hope to accomplish this through the love of Jesus, and the warmth of our church family.”

Byron, we cannot put a camera in anyone’s bedroom, but if a member pushes for the church to accept sexual acts between the same sex, or talks about their own ones, then we object. Remember, God’s church is like a hospital, we don’t only look for the totally healthy person, but we also do our best to help those with a problem through Christ’s love.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


CTaylor — June 4, 2008 @ 3:50 pm

There is an interesting book out now called Christianity and Homosexuality: Some Seventh Day Adventist Perspectives. Many of the authors are Seventh-day Adventist employees or retired employees. It might be an thought provoking adjunct to this conversation.


J Madden — June 4, 2008 @ 4:09 pm

The bible advocates polygamy and slavery in various places and we no longer practice those things (FLDS, Islam, etc. aside) and most find them actually abhorant.

The doctrines that we pay attention to in the bible are flexible, and do change, contrary to conventional wisdom.

This website:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm

Quotes the following 19th century statements by “learned men”:

“[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.” Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

“There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral.” Rev. Alexander Campbell

“The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.” Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

“The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage.” A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

“The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined.” United States Senator James Henry Hammond.

I will not bother to compare and contrast those statement with some of the “theological” statements and arguments being put forth on this blog. One can see them for oneself for what they are.

Suffice it to say, the church will have to adapt like it did with slavery and that is the way it will have to be, assuming the law doesn’t pass. Many churches and churchgoers were wrong about slavery and many churches, or religious liberty organizations as the case may be, are also wrong about this.


Larry M — June 4, 2008 @ 5:33 pm

To J Madden. Please direct us to the scriptures that say polygamy & slavery, ie, man owning man, is sanctioned. Also, where does it say that doctrines change from day to day, or generation to generation? Our Creator is the same in all ages. There is no turning nor variableness in Him. May be that kind of thinking is why there is so much confusion. Back to the crux of this discussion. I think Alan is trying to protect all rights, whether it is religious or not. I don’t see him saying to curtail the constitutional right to allow gay marriage. He is comparing the inconistincy in gays rights compared to religious rights. NARLA would be remiss in trying to curtail anyones right, constitutionaly, to choosing their course in life. Our Creator allowed our first parents that right. We are to warn the world of sin & its impending consequences, not make laws against freedom of conscience. I think NARLA is only trying to make the laws, both secular & religious, on an even playing field.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 4, 2008 @ 6:25 pm

Larry M

Alan consistently fights gay rights for any reason he can conjure up. Refer to my post on June 3, which quotes him back to 2002, complaining that if the bill passed, then the church would have to give the same benefits to Domestic Partners that they give to heterosexual couples. If they did not accept government funds, there would be no problem.

And once again, I will point out that fighting gay rights, also punishes those homosexuals who are living a good Christian SDA life. I do not know of any way that it is proper to punish the innocent because of the guilty.

If you “don’t see him saying to curtail the constitutional right to allow gay marriage”, what do you call his calling it a threat, wanting to reverse it in November?

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


J Madden — June 4, 2008 @ 6:54 pm

Larry,

Please look at the link I provided, and here are the texts that it links on slavery:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm

Re: Polygamy condoned in the bible, a random sampling of a Large number of verses:

Exodus 21:10
“If [a man] marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.”

2 Samuel 5:13; “David” (God’s “Chosen One”) “took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.”

Deuteronomy 21
“15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.”

And so on. There’s more where that came from.

I do not need to point out in the bible where it says Christian doctrines change, that is a simple observation. One need only look at church history and the variety of Christian doctrine. For example, Adventists are a doctrinal outgrowth of the Millerites, which are a doctrinal outgrowth of the Baptists, which are a doctrinal outgrowth of the…. etc. etc. back through Roman Catholicism to the apostles and Jesus himself.

Likewise, the church will probably change about this. It is only a matter of time.

NARLA (through Alan) is trying to uphold the right to persecute gays as a religious right. That is absurd. That he tried to justify it via the Bob Jones ruling is particularly odious. The Bob Jones case was one of clear racial bigotry, and even Bob Jones III was pretty clear on it:

“CNN.com March 4, 2000

The president of Bob Jones University on Friday said his school has ended its ban on interracial dating in wake of the controversy stirred by George W. Bush’s visit to the fundamentalist Christian school.

“We don’t have to have that rule. In fact, as of today, we have dropped the rule,” Bob Jones III told CNN’s “Larry King Live.”

He said he met with administrators earlier in the day and decided to end the policy, because “I don’t want to hurt the church of Jesus Christ.”

Besides, Jones said, the policy “is meaningless to us.”

“Our concern for the school’s broader usefulness is greater to us than a rule we never talk about,” he said.

At another point, Jones said, “We can’t back it up with a verse in the Bible.”

Indeed.


Michael DePaula — June 4, 2008 @ 7:37 pm

Gheorghe and J Madden, so wonderful to hear your comments here. It’s refreshing to know that sane people still survive. If you haven’t already, I would recommend visiting the sites GodIsImaginary.com and WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com which I help administer.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz, while I appreciate your comments, I’m afraid that your “okay to be gay but just not act on it”-attitude is a recipe for disaster in your own life. When you realize how unfair that actually is to the very nature of the human species, you will understand just how cruel such a “creation” would be. The fact is humans (indeed in most species) can be heterosexual, homosexual, or somewhere in between. There is no “wrong” position and it is very natural and normal for anyone to act upon their urges for companionship. I urge you to stop denying yourself the very activities that make you who you are (though I suspect you already do and just prefer to keep them quiet–that’s okay, we’ve all done that with our secret “sins”). Perhaps it’s time you stop defending yourself against attackers from within the church and start distancing yourself from people who possess such attitudes to begin with. Reconciliation is a wonderful thing, but it’s not likely that the mainstream churches (of most denominations) will wake up to their bigotry and intolerance any time soon.

To all commenters I wish to reiterate that while you are entitled to your opinions regarding the “(im)morality” of homosexuality and any other issue, what you cannot do is legislate public life according to your religious views. We live in a secular society and for good reason: secular society affords all the space in which to live happily and with liberty (and where it doesn’t yet provide for liberty, we can use the courts and public sentiment to petition for their inclusion). Homosexuals deserve equality in this regard. So disagree all you want, but when you go to the polls, vote IN FAVOR of homosexual rights because in doing so you will strengthen our democracy and separation of church and state. And ultimately you will be helping your own cause.


Larry M — June 4, 2008 @ 7:49 pm

To J Madden. Maybe I am not clear on the term condone. Is it the same as saying it is ok, no problem? As you know, the Creator did not create multiple wives for Adam. Our Savior stated because of the hard hearts of men He allowed for them to make do with certain codicles attached. We saw the results of bigamy in all the Patriarchs lives. Same as divorce. Our Savior made it clear there was only one reason for divorce, not what man came up with. Sorry to get off track of main subject. I am sure there is a correlation somwhere. Thankyou for your feed back. To Duke. Isn’t Alan fighting for equality in both cases? It may look like to you & others that he is stomping on the rights of humans to choose their way of life. I am sorry, I don’t. It seems he is making a statement of the uneven ground of rights for gays & religion. That is just my opinion. It is easy to get emotional on subjects as these, especially if some are fighting the battle of the flesh. We all have our battles to fight. I pray for all to be overcomers by the Blood of The Lamb. We have Omnipotence on our side to give us new propensities & desires. please keep me in all yor prayers for the battles i fight of the lust of eyes, flesh & pride of life,whatever they may be. Lets pray for compassion, insight 7 wisdom from the Eternal Spirit. Thankyou for your feed back.


J Madden — June 4, 2008 @ 8:17 pm

Larry:

Was it okay to keep slaves? Was it okay for the church to condone that, and then see the light and advocate freedom?

Was it okay for Bob Jones University in it’s religous capacity to ban interracial dating and then to see the light and reverse the rule?

Isn’t the church and NARLA essentially repeating history here? At one time it was absolutely “biblical” to keep slaves and apparently to ban interracial dating/marriage. Now it’s not.

This church “condoning” and “banning” thing is a very slippery slope for them. Perhaps the church and NARLA shouldn’t be in the business of deciding who is okay or not okay to marry or love at all and leave it to the civil government. Especially when it comes to personal liberty. The church has such an excellent batting average so far, why don’t they quit while they are behind?

Gay people should have the same civil rights as non-gay people. Full stop. If the government has to grant them some relatively insignificant “special status” to accomplish this, then that is the way it has to be. It is working with racism, we now have a (very) viable black candidate for president and well we should! When gays enjoy the same kinds of status as that, the US will have arrived at true liberty. Until then, the church will just have to adapt.

Ultimately the church and NARLA will lose this battle. It may not be this election, or the next, but I suspect they will lose.

Thank God.


PAMELA — June 4, 2008 @ 8:33 pm

I think that were on the last days, and everything that is happening, its because the WORLD IS ABOUT TO END. There no excuse

Everything has to happen. It its God will ;
anyways GOD CREATED ADAN AND EVEN NOT ADAM AND STEVE ?OR EVE AND SARA
NOOO HE DINT HE CREATED MEN AND WOMEN; AND WE SHOULD NOT BRAKE HIS LAW.SENCE THE WORLD WAS CREATED HE STABLISH MARRIGE, AND HE STABILISH THE SATURDAY BOTH OF THIS THINGS ARE BEING SLAPED!

I BELIVE IN WHAT GOD SAYS
WHAT THE BIBLIE SAYS!
EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING NOW IS SIGNAL OF GOD 2SECOMING
BECAUSE SOON THERE WILL BE A LAW! THAT WILL STOP US FROM KEEPING THE SABATH!BUT ONLY GOD FAITHFUL PEOPLE WILL BE STRONG!!


Larry M — June 4, 2008 @ 9:48 pm

To J Madden. By the church being ok with slavery, do you mean the SDA church, the church @ Pauls time, or the Christian church @ large? It is a fact that the Spirit of Prophecy stated no one could be a member of the church who owned slaves. Yes there were SDA’s who owned slaves but it was not condoned. We are in the times of evil being called good, & good being called evil. Let us ask Alan if he is voting against gay marriage or what it will do to religious freedom. Remember, as it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be in the last days. We should not, as a secular society, make laws mandating morality, except in the cases of pedophilia, rape, incest, or anything that helps the helpless. We do not live in a theocracy, yet. You say that it will be a true state of liberty in these States if we pass these laws. There is the problem, we as believers have. We cannot infringe by law on liberty of conscience in all arenas, moral spiritual, etc… On the other hand judgements will fall on this land of freedom of ours because of such liberty. That is why we need to reach out to all people in love & compassion & lift up our Savior as the One Who saves us from our sin, not in our sin. Thankyou for your feedback.


Stephen A. Waggoner — June 4, 2008 @ 10:05 pm

Only on planet earth must we deal with such nonsense, but it’s a sour topic that goes well over tea and crumpets. Mr. Reinach is correct that in theory gay marriage which is an oxymoron in itself is of no personal effect on genuine Christian conviction. We stand with Christ the final solution while the world and all its kinky ways is a passing fad.
The down side is we are here until further notice, but our lot is to make no compromise that displeases our Lord. It’s true about all the imbalance imposed on society, yet it speaks volumes of the world’s spiritual depravity. Those sorry souls who create such webs are bound to get entangled.
All the world’s pains should only cause us to share the gospel, to downsize, and pack our bags for the last day. They may be gay (a trick of the mind), but they’re not happy. Stephen Waggoner


Zequias — June 4, 2008 @ 10:08 pm

I suggest to all of you commenting here to go to YOU TUBE and see the conference/discussion that took place at our Southern Adventist University not too long ago. There are many lessons to be learned from the student speakers at that conference. One will learn what “the image of God ” we were made alike conssists of. One will also learn of how much choice is involved when it comes to sexual orientation, and what the bible texts really talked about, and the contexts in which they were written.

Have we as adventists forgotten to believe in present truth? The truth as we have seen it to be moves ahead as we find new light. Homosexuality has been misunderstood by most adventists. If we are sincere and want to practice the love Jesus asked us to have, let’s not be hard headed when it comes to an issue like this, an issue which touches the lives of so many of God’s children. Are you going to hate and discard any of your kids, if one of them comes to you and tell you he/she is gay? You all have an obligation to understand this issue in a better light, and that will happen only when you give yourself a chance to understand the bible texts from another view. Please stop being stubborn!


J Madden — June 4, 2008 @ 10:24 pm

I am mostly speaking of Christianity when I speak of the church, and you are correct that Adventism was dominantly anti-slavery as I understand the history. But you are missing my main point when I discuss that. The Adventist church and/or NARLA is advocating suppressing the rights of a minority (gays) as the various other churches suppressed the rights of blacks. It is the same problem. Alan has invoked them both in his arguments and damned his argument for that very reason.

If Alan thinks that the legal outcome of the Bob Jones fiasco was wrong, then he is clearly misguided, at minimum. There was no basis, legal or otherwise, for that residual bit of racism, as Bob Jones III more or less stated. That a Christian university even tried to enforce racism as late as 2000 and only changed under intense political pressure from “their” side is appalling for Christianity, frankly.

There is no religious freedom to be lost here. There is only bigotry to be lost. Alan’s arguments contained many logical fallacies, he is grasping at straws. Straw Men, to be precise.

Again, I do not concern myself with the next life, or who thinks that we are at the End Times. Paul thought his was the end time, and former Millerites should know better. We have to deal with THIS time, and deal with our own selves NOW. I refuse to justify intolerance using religion or anything else. It was wrong with the blacks, it is wrong with the gays. Any attempts otherwise is merely using the bible to advance an aweful agenda and is much thE same as the churches that supported slavery.

Christians claim to be about love. Well I say here’s the chance to put one’s votes where one’s mouth is. Either one is in favor of loving couples being married, or one is not in favor of love and liberty, as far as I am concerned.


Gheorghe — June 4, 2008 @ 10:43 pm

Michael DePaula, I regret if my postings lead you to believe that I might be interested in atheist propaganda. I am a genuine member of the SDA Church, I know my faith, and I plan to stay in my faith until the end of time (mine or the actual end of time). I never intended to provide you with additional ammunition to criticize the SDA Church, and let me make my position very clear: I strongly believe that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle, a choice, and people who practice this lifestyle will have to answer to God, not to me, you or NARLA. If you do not believe me read 1 Corinthians 6:9

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.”

My only point of contention was that my Church, the SDA Church, should not inject herself in this very political charged issue that is being used by the Republicans to divide and conquer Evangelical Christians. God bless and I will pray for you Michael!


Jamie — June 4, 2008 @ 10:50 pm

There was once a time when I was proud of how are church looked upon religious freedom. It was something that should be granted everybody, whether or not they agreed with us. I’m am saddened to see that, with the issue of homosexuality, the ideals of religious freedom have been twisted to support imposing religious beliefs on people who don’t hold them (because let’s face it, there are no non-religious beliefs to prevent people from acknowleding that they are gay).

It’s this kind of thing that makes me lose faith in the one aspect of the SDA church that I managed to keep faith in.


Jeanne — June 4, 2008 @ 11:22 pm

We do have to remember that God loves the SINNER not the SIN. And I think that is where we really fall short. God loves gay men and women but He does NOT love the life style they are in. Jesus came to seek and save them as much as He came to seek and save even me. That’s where we as members of the church must try to reach out and help them see that Jesus is their Savior too.


Zequias — June 5, 2008 @ 2:17 am

Homosexuality is not a choice and there’s enough proof about this. Adventists in general need to take their heads off the sand and face this reality. Be courageous enough to be educated on the realities about homosexuality, to help a member of your family or members of other families, friends, who may face this issue sometime in life.

To base one’s beliefs on outdated suppositions is not a christian virtue. There’s new knowledge and new discoveries about sexuality and sexual orientation in today’s world. It’s up to sincere christians to search and study, and hold what is good. After all we are told to love our neighbors as we do ourselvs, and never to judge anyone based on our misconceptions.

Below is the URL to the conference on homosexuality at
SAU.

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2008/05/02/southern_adventist_university_student_debate_homosexuality


Michael DePaula — June 5, 2008 @ 2:17 am

Gheorghe, no apology necessary. I was merely referring to your assent to the secular underpinnings of our constitution and the laws which our nation enacts. Normally, I would not feel the need to applaud the obvious, but lately I am aghast at the lack of public knowledge surrouding American history. Christian revisionism is rampant in society. Education is our only hope.

That aside, the sites I referenced could hardly be described as “atheist propoganda” more than taking a English test could be classified as “grammarian propoganda.” Read the points, challenge yourself, and irregardless of whether you agree or disagree, join the forums and share your opinions.

Quoting Bible verses is pointless because anyone not a Christian is under no obligation to take the Bible seriously. Least of all myself, an SDA for 20-some odd years who has shown that he is willing to follow truth wherever it leads, even if it means rejecting propositions one has believed since youth. It would be much like me quoting Star Trek captain’s logs to you in support of my position of why you should be a Trekkie. You likely don’t care because they are as good as fiction in your mind.

That’s right, you PRAY for me and I’ll be sure to THINK for you.


Zequias — June 5, 2008 @ 2:35 am

One more point.

The so called “life style” of christian gays is like this. Get up in the morning, do one’s devotional, eat breakfast, get on the road, go to work, come home eat and go to sleep. Could someone tell me what is wrong with all of that?

Unless you are enfatuated with the thought of what goes on sexualy with gays (which should be no one’s business), the life style of gays is the same as the one of heterosexuals. Im sure you have and enjoy your privacies. Let others have theirs.


Michael DePaula — June 5, 2008 @ 8:46 am

Apparently the moderators think it’s fun to delete posts they disagree with. I’ve blogged about Reinach’s article on my site. MichaelDePaula.com


AJ — June 5, 2008 @ 10:37 am

I am OFFENDED that some claim to be part of the remanent church and yet also claim to be or do things that are an abomination unto God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am adding several to my prayer list.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 5, 2008 @ 12:46 pm

Attn: Michael DePaula

Hi, thank you for your thoughts at your blog (MichaelDePaula.com). If you posted it to here however, it probably was deleted for using certain words that a filter would pick up. Why not try it again, leaving them out.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 5, 2008 @ 1:17 pm

Attn: AJ

You said “I am OFFENDED that some claim to be part of the remanent church and yet also claim to be or do things that are an abomination unto God!”

Stay with the topic. Be careful not to place yourself as too high of an authority. Remember that ‘many of the very elite will be damned’. God does not judge people by the group(s) that they are associated with, but rather by their hearts and what they do with their talents.

That is Alan’s problem. He judges and decides what is good for all in regards to a group, by what he perceives the morals of a group to be. I and many of my ‘gay’ friends, raise youth far better than the average heterosexual that I know. Just stop and think about it - ALL adulterers are heterosexuals!!!!! Think again - how will God judge the homosexual who was taught by his church that his sexual relationships were okay, and he truly believed it and loved the Lord?

Civil laws have to be fair to ALL religious beliefs in this country. Why do religious beliefs keep getting brought into this topic in the first place? They should have nothing to do with the topic of ‘gay civil unions/marriages’! THAT is where Alan is wrong. I believe that his religious values are good, but he is violating the very ministry that he is speaking for. He needs his own private blog, because he is not abiding by the principles of our church here.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Larry M — June 5, 2008 @ 2:16 pm

To Howard ‘duke’ & others with the wrong idea of our fallen nature. Howard, & those that make the excuse that they were born gay, or those that are born Irish, with their Irish tempers, or Indians , because of the rampant alcholism, & those ignorant people who say being gay is a choice, better understand the workings of hereditary. We are all born with sinful fallen flesh. Some have different propensities, proclivities, predilections, than others. Then we have cultivated, or learned tendencies. We need to quit making excuses about our leanings of the flesh. Our Savior was made in sinful flesh & condemned sin in that flesh for our sakes. Do we not belive the word of the Almighty that he can recreate us & give us new minds, propensities & overcome sin by His blood? If there are people who live with their same sex partners but say they are celibate Christians, the word says to not make provision for the flesh. That would be like an alchoholic keeping alchohol in the house. I was born with certain propensities of, what people would call aberrant behavior. My flesh yearns for what Solomon & many other men want, multiple sex partners, women, & what comes with that. Only by the unmerited favor & Spirit indwelling & cleansing blood of my Savior, & constant prayer & crucifying the flesh, is there victory. I know we have gotten off track of the main discussion, & I am sorry. Why doesn’t someone ask Alan point blank if his motive is to stop gay marriage, or, if he is looking out for religious rights only. May we all have a right understanding of our nature & quit pointing fingers & making excuses for the way we are. It is what we can become in our Savior is why He came. I am sure there is another blog to go to to have a further discussion on these points so we don’t take up any more space & time from this blog. If so please point me in that direction. I just thank my Precious Savior for all that He has done, is doing, & willing to do in my bent, filthy, depraved, sick from head to toe, life. Thankyou for your patience & time & feedback, one & all. Compassion all, compassion.


Jeanne — June 5, 2008 @ 4:20 pm

I do believe in full compassion just like Christ who believes we should have full compassion but that does not mean we should be giving the idea to people that it is all right to be gay or lesbian. Christ told Mary Magdeline to go and sin no more and sleeping man with man or woman with woman is an abomination to the Lord and the bible does say those won’t be in heaven. NOW with that said, it does not mean that they can not stop from what they are doing. If they ask the Lord to help them and to save them by all means He will save them for isn’t that why Jesus came to seek and save that who is lost. All I can say is if God were to accept the sin that they are doing then He’s going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gormorah for destroying the 2 cities cause homosexuality was rampant in that day. Did He love them. Oh by all means. But He could not let them keep doing the awful sin they were doing. Like I said before, God loves the sinner but hates the sin. It’s not natural affection no matter how one tries to make it to be. Will it affect religious liberty? It just might when it comes down to freedom. Please let’s remember to always love the sinner ( people ) but hate the sin that they are in. Thank you for letting me speak.


PAMELA — June 5, 2008 @ 4:27 pm

THE MAIN POINT IS
ALL THIS HAS TO HAPPEN
PEOPLE JESUS IS COMINGO!!!
THERE ABOU TO PUT THE SUNDAY LAW ALL THIS HAS TO HAPPEN!
ANYWAS THIS GAY MARRIGE HAS TO END BECAUSE ” WHEN THEY PUT THE SUNDAY LAW THEY HAVE TO ACT LIKE ”THEY REALLY WANNA CHANGE!!OMG PEOPLE ITS OVER
THIS CRUEL UGLY WORLD IS COMING TO THE END
WE SDA HAVE TO UNITE OUR SELVES


John Stevens — June 5, 2008 @ 6:19 pm

In the case of a hospital that is requested to assist in in an artificial insemiantion and the religious doctors were not given aa conscience exemption, I would like to state that when a religious institution that accepts government funding for its operation that denial is an appropriate action. As long as such institutions accept federal or state funding, coming fromt he pockets of all citizens, including lesbians in this instance, they have an obligation to be totally colorblind on services. We can’t have it both ways, want religious exemptions and then on the other had oppose religious establishemnt, and the use of tax funding by religious organizations.

John


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 5, 2008 @ 9:22 pm

Thank yuo John Stevens, that is exactly where this blog should end. Otherwise we are trying to affect civil law with our denominational beliefs.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Michael DePaula — June 5, 2008 @ 10:17 pm

You guys are exactly right. Any discussion of “should homosexuality be _____?” is completely irrelevant. If you take public funds you must allow access to all groups even if they are groups that offend you.

Solution? Simple, stop taking public funds! I always laugh when I read discussions of Christian administers of hospitals/large church organizations distraight over losing public funding. “We won’t be able to continue our services to blah blah blah…” Good, I say. If the God you serve who “owns the cattle upon a thousand hills” can’t give you subsidy without you resorting to public tax dollars then what kind of God is he, really? You can’t have it both ways.

Personally, I think the tax-free status of churches should be pulled anyway, especially with the recent rampancy of politicking and support of certain public policies coming from various pulpits all across the land.


angelica — June 5, 2008 @ 10:49 pm

By Dr. Pipim

God created male and female to differ from and yet to complement each other. And when He did so, He oriented their sexual feelings toward those of the opposite sex. The differentiation and connectedness that characterize people are manifested in the attraction that draws the two sexes to each other in order to form a whole relationship.

In some cases, sin has affected even this basic orientation, bringing about a phenomenon that has been termed inversion. In such cases, the natural orientation toward the opposite sex appears inverted, producing a basic sexual orientation toward people of the same gender.

Scripture condemns homosexual practices in strongly negative terms (Gen. 19:4-10; cf. Jude 7, 8; Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:26-28; 1 Tim. 1:8-10). Practices of this type produce a serious distortion of the image of God in men and women.

Because “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23, KJV), Christians will deal redemptively with those who are afflicted by this disorder. They will reflect the attitude Christ took toward the woman taken in adultery: “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more” (John 8:11, KJV). Not only those with homosexual tendencies, butt all persons who are trapped in behaviors or relationships that cause anxiety, shame, and guilt need the sympathetic ear of a trained and experienced Christian counselor. No behavior is beyond the reach of God’s healing grace” (Seventh-day Adventists Believe. . . , p. 303).

(b) Church Manual (2000). The current Church Manual addresses the issue of homosexuality in the context of “Social Relationships,” “Reasons for Church Discipline,” and “The Church’s Position on Divorce and Remarriage.” The manual condemns homosexual practice as a “perversion” of God’s plan, a “grievous” sin, and a “violation” of the divine intention in marriage. The relevant sections read:

[On Social Relationship]. Adultery, sexual abuse of spouses, incest, sexual abuse of children, homosexual practices, lesbian practices are among the obvious perversions of God’s original plan. As the intent of clear passages of Scripture (Ex. 20:14; Lev. 18:22, 29 and 20:13; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10; Rom. 1:20-32) is denied and as their warnings are rejected in exchange for human opinions, much uncertainty and confusion prevail. This is what Satan desires. It has always been his plan to cause people to forget that God is their Creator and that when He “created man in His own image” He created them “male and female” (Gen. 1:27). The world is witnessing today a resurgence of the perversions of ancient civilization” (Church Manual, p. 170; emphasis).

[On Reasons for Church Discipline]. Among the grievous sins for which members shall be subject to church discipline are the following: . . .

Such violations as fornication, promiscuity, incest, homosexual practice, sexual abuse of children and vulnerable adults, and other sexual perversions, and the remarriage of a divorced person, except of the spouse who has remained faithful to the marriage vow in a divorce for adultery or for sexual perversions.” . . .

The church cannot afford to deal lightly with such sins nor permit personal considerations to affect its actions. It must register its decisive and emphatic disapproval of the sins of fornication, adultery, all acts of moral indiscretion, and other grievous sins; at the same time it must do everything to restore and reclaim the erring ones. As the world continually grows more lax in moral matters, the church must not lower the standards set by God (Church Manual, p. 184-185; emphasis).

[On Divorce and Remarriage] Unfaithfulness to the marriage vow has general been seen to mean adultery and/or fornication. However, the New Testament word for fornication includes certain other sexual irregularities. (1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:9, 10; Rom. 1:24-27.) Therefore, sexual perversions, including incest, child sexual abuse, and homosexual practices, are also recognized as a misuse of sexual powers and a violation of the divine intention in marriage. As such they are just cause for separation or divorce” (Church Manual (2000), pp. 184-185; emphasis)

(c) Official SDA Statement on Homosexuality (1999). This statement was voted during the Annual Council of the General Conference Executive Committee on Sunday, October 3, 1999, in Silver Spring, Maryland. It reads in its entirety:

The Seventh-day Adventist Church recognizes that every human being is valuable in the sight of God, and we seek to minister to all men and women in the spirit of Jesus. We also believe that by God’s grace and through the encouragement of the community of faith, an individual may live in harmony with the principles of God’s Word.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that sexual intimacy belongs only within the marital relationship of a man and a woman. This was the design established by God at creation. The Scriptures declare: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh’ (Gen. 2:24, NIV). Throughout Scripture this heterosexual pattern is affirmed. The Bible makes no accommodation for homosexual activity or relationships. Sexual acts outside the circle of a heterosexual marriage are forbidden (Lev. 20:7-21; Rom. 1:24-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-11). Jesus Christ reaffirmed the divine creation intent: ‘Haven’t you read,’ he replied, ‘that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one’ (Matt. 19:4-6, NIV). For these reasons Adventists are opposed to homosexual practices and relationships.

Seventh-day Adventists endeavor to follow the instruction and example of Jesus. He affirmed the dignity of all human beings and reached out compassionately to persons and families suffering the consequences of sin. He offered caring ministry and words of solace to struggling people, while differentiating His love for sinners from His clear teaching about sinful practices.

Despite the church’s official position on homosexuality, some influential thought leaders in the church are urging the church to abandon its biblical position. Other articles on this drpipim.org website explains why they are doing so, and the arguments they employ to justify their position. A full discussion of the subject is available in the author’s book Must We Be Silent? (available at http://www.Berean-Books.org).


Georgia — June 5, 2008 @ 11:17 pm

Howard duke Holtz said this….At present however, we NEED legal rights to protect us from religious beliefs that we choose not to believe in. THAT choice is our choice to make, but unless God chooses to intervene, it is impossible to choose not to be tempted with Same Gender Attraction. If you are a heterosexual, I doubt if you can choose not to be tempted when observing a beautiful woman.

Quite the contrary Howard. What we need is religious conviction to protect us from immoral Laws. And to say that it is impossible to not heed a temptation is to say we have no hope or help from above. And GOD has intervened in more ways then we can count. Consider AIDS and then Sodom and Gomorrah and last but surely not least Leviticus 18:22. And please remember that people who choose to live by their faith have the same right to express that faith as gay people.


Silvername — June 5, 2008 @ 11:37 pm

All Christians should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is guilty of sexual immorality.

discrimination against homophiles is a God-given individual right, that is what we need to push and demand to be enshrined in our laws.

There is nothing wrong with discriminating against homophiles, there is nothin wrong with being anti-homophile, in fact that is a good thing, to be anti-homophile is just as good as being anti-pedophile or anti-terrorist


Michael DePaula — June 6, 2008 @ 12:50 am

Silvername,

And WHY would you want to pass laws making that make non-Christians follow what you think is right?

If you are an Adventist, you should already be aware of the dangers of religious groups trying to pass laws upon others who disagree with them. So why would you want to be a hypocrite?


Zequias — June 6, 2008 @ 1:52 am

Most of you do not realize the truth about homosexuals. You think that they are in actuality heterosexuals who chose to be attracted to the same sex. That’s where you are completely wrong. We all know God is able to change alcoholics and people with acquired bad habits. Homosexuals are not heterosexuals with a bad habit, as you all imply them to be. They are just people created by the same God that created you, but with a little difference.

You all want to condemn gay christians to completely ignore their sexuality as if it did not exist. Could ny of you live that type of a life? In same sex relationships, one is using that gift only God can give to a human, to be able to love someone and to want to spend their lives together. Most gays before coming out prayed for years asking God for a change. It was not God’s plan to change them, so they realized. If you have some kind of an excuse to be mad at gays who want to enjoy a normal life with someone they are attracted to, why don’t instead you get mad at God who created all of us with our differences? You are all barking at the wrong tree. Don’t judge anyone. Let God be the judge.


Frank — June 6, 2008 @ 2:12 am

It is hard enough to keep Christians from being discriminated against in the workplace.

Why then fight so hard for the right to discriminate against others?

If you want Workplace Religious Freedom, stop taking away the religious freedom of gay people who want to be married.


Kevin — June 6, 2008 @ 5:43 am

I feel sad with some of the comments on here. Yes, grace seems to slip out the door while legalism takes over. This is not about religious liberty not one bit. Its about basic human rights. Rights to compansionship, love and acceptance. For far too long discrimation has hounded God’s children to loss of employment, loss of family, loss of church and thrust out to be outcasts. This is how the church has treated gays and to me, still continues to do so by enforcing a lifelong of loneliness of celibacy. But I’m heartened by some postive comments here, folks who’ve learnt how to love as Jesus did reaching out to the outcast, and held them close in His embrace. The church should be a caring church, a welcoming church and most of all a nuturing church. The church should be fulfilling the mission of losing the burdens of injustice and ensuring all are fairly treated with dignity, respect and love regardless of orientation.
I’m all for gay marriage as it is a Christian duty to do so.
God loves you all


Eli — June 6, 2008 @ 7:16 am

Hello,

It’s very nice how most comments say great article great article. ”

Due to my sepparate gay and christian identities, i understand many points made by the article,

i feel for the author’s sadness if it be that as a christian, he feels christians arn’t excepted at large, due to people normally thinking he is closed minded to societ’s social issues. to be honest, when it comes to if you’re excepted or not as a christian, i think people are normally, your’re fine shut your mouth when it comes to God or the Bible.

As far as religous liberty goes, i think we have a long way to go were there would be true protection of relious right’s, i know i think personally it won’t happen and have my reason’s for thinking the way i do.

the author has a consistent covetous theme which runs through the bulk of the article of “gay people have now reached protection like to racial discrimination” sounds like from his perspective, “they have all the proction and we christians are being told what we can do in our schools, ie the christian univeristy which stopped being able to stop dating or something’

Finally, i feel that we don’t have true religous liberty, but i will take to opportunity to remind the likes of the author and cohorts that there isn’t religous liberty for fellow gay believers in any fundamental christian demonination who belives the Bible is infallible.
In the remnant church, who are aiming to life christlike,

Now is the time to let the Lord determine who is part of the real church,


Jamie — June 6, 2008 @ 8:53 am

I know that being gay is not a choice. Many people here have decided (based on little to no evidence) that it is.

It makes me wonder. Is being ignorant a choice, or are people just born that way?


Pamela — June 6, 2008 @ 10:06 am

Personally i think we shoulnt be worrying about all this mess about gay marriges, because remeber God has everything in control!
Soon his wratch is gonna explote! because the sinner are sining againt his HOLY LAW!!!
Me personally is trying to have a better relationship with GOD because brothers and sisters we have to be ready 4 the great tribulation!!?Who follows me?


Larry M — June 6, 2008 @ 11:45 am

To all who say that the Creator created or made homosexuals the way they are, please wake up. Same as those who say homosexual feelings is a choice, wake up. It is soley because of sin & our fallen nature. You may as well say Lucifer was created sinful. Both sides are making dangerous excuses for behavior. The choice that is made is commiting the act of following after our desires. Temptation is not sin. To those of you say that any loving relationship that includes sexual intimacy, is ok in the sight of the Almighty, better. be careful. He will not be mocked. All sin is deplorable in His sight. Look at the cross & see the consequences. Gossip, among other things, is stated in the same sentence as homosexuality being wrong. Yes, we all need to reach out to one another with the compassion & love of our Savior. But beware of bringing in heresy & blasphemous things into the church. When I was living with a woman in sin & fornication, I was never taken aside & counciled by an elder or pastor that I cannot rightfully live that way, let alone participate in church duties. The law has never changed or the right way of doing things. What has changed is the church not blowing the trumpet & showing the people their sins & to confess & repent. Too many dumb dogs that won’t bark. Too many smooth things being preached to scratch itchy ears. On the other hand we cannot osticize those reaching out for salvation. It is written,”If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Almighty will not hear my prayers.” Time is too short to make excuses for our fallen nature & giving in to our lusts. We cannot afford to have Achans in the camp. That doesnt mean they are to be thrown out & discarded. We are to treat them as our Savior did. Leave the 99 & look & save the lost.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 6, 2008 @ 12:56 pm

There are some great articles being placed here such as Angelica’s and Georgia’s, but they have nothing to do with the topic of a “CIVIL marriage/union”. If anyone wishes to discuss the RELIGIOUS aspects of homosexuality from the SDA viewpoint, please go to http://www.GLOW.cc. It is run by SDA laymen, and has discussion groups for everyone.

Please, this is a CIVIL issue, not religious.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 6, 2008 @ 1:18 pm

Silvername, you have a warped sense of Christianity. Morals are a religious issue, and definitely not a basis for discrimination outside of one’s religious circle.

Also, you said:”to be anti-homophile is just as good as being anti-pedophile or anti-terrorist”. Pedophiles, terrorists, and for that fact people who discriminate, all violate other’s civil rights. Beings a homosexual does not!!!!

Before I became celibate, I had sex with other guys many hundreds of times. Did that ever affect YOU???? Why can’t you be happy to be allowed to live YOUR life as you choose, religiously and personally, and allow others to do the same. And further, as an American (if you are), you do not have ANY right to obstruct my constitutional rights.

I think you should go back to Genesis and read the book again. I can not recall any instance that Jesus ever attacked a civil law or right - what gives you the authority to do so? That is a waste of your talents (biblically so), and actually turns others against Christians (also biblically incorrect according to Jesus).

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


ADF Alliance Alert » Same Sex Marriage Threatens Religious Liberty — June 6, 2008 @ 1:59 pm

[...] Reinach has this commentary on Religious Liberty. He begins: In theory, allowing homosexual couples to marry should not threaten anyone’s [...]


Georgia — June 6, 2008 @ 11:24 pm

You know I have nothing against anyone human being. However I do have a problem when another person cry’s foul simply because I refuse to surrender a basic belief. Ralph Waldo Emerson stated in his essay Self Reliance that to conform to another persons demands is to render a part of yourself to that person. I can not and do not want to be responsible for another persons choice’s, And I will not surrender
my right to Religious Liberty because a homosexual wants to force his\her belief system on me likewise I will not force my belief system on anyone else. And that is what is happening now in State Court systems.


Zequias — June 7, 2008 @ 2:23 am

Many here like to classify sinners into two groups. Good sinners and bad sinners. Some of you fear others are not keeping the law as they need to. Some others even though not keeping the law perfectly themselvs, always expect others to do it.

Our perfection will always be only by the grace and perfection of Jesus and His all complete sacrifice for us. If you think you are a better sinner than a homosexual sinner, just because you are heterosexual, you have not understood salvation by grace, thru faith in Jesus all sufficient sacrifice.

Do not try to correct what you think is wrong with others. Just sincerely love them, accept them just as they are and pray for them. In doing this you will be fulfilling the law of “loving one another as yourself” that Jesus spoke about.


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 11:12 am

I am seeing lots of religious reasons for opposing gay marriage, but not many legal reasons. People claim that there are social reasons, but it always comes back to religion.

The arguments against gay marriage are also the same ones used by employers to discriminate against people because of their faith. In fact, employers would have a stronger secular argument against providing religious accommodation than the state has in outlawing gay marriage.

Attorney Reinach says, “Consider that a Christian school could expel two heterosexual students for sexual misconduct without exposing itself to legal liability, but could not expel homosexual students for the same offense.”

He is wrong. No American court has reached that conclusion.

I do not like gay marriage, I will never to attend a gay marriage ceremony, I will not support gay marriages in my church, BUT I will NOT vote for an Amendment to stop it because I would be imposing my beliefs on others.

We are compromising our ability to defend religious liberty when we oppose the liberty of others.


J Madden — June 7, 2008 @ 12:12 pm

Georgia said:

“I do have a problem when another person cry’s foul simply because I refuse to surrender a basic belief.”

I am sure the slave owners said much the same thing.


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 12:30 pm

Susan you may be right that no American Court has not reached that conclusion. But you left out YET!
And that is what is happening NOW our Liberty to act on the Standards and Moral Laws of GOD is being opposed by people who aim to diminish the right of an individual to stand on their moral convictions. Please remember that we live in a world that for thousands of years has fought to stamp out the faith based community. Why? Because it stands on truth and that is just not acceptable.
It is not my place to JUDGE anyone, However it is my job to join in the fight to preserve the right to act on our faith without the fear
of another person demanding we conform to their way of life.


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 1:07 pm

J Madden I am sure you are right. However when you compare these two issues you are splitting hairs. A common practice for those who wish to twist words in order to get what they want. The American Civil Rights Act was JUSTICE for the black community. And not one tried to
remove a single right I have to practice my FAITH. History has shown us that more groups then the black community have used the A.C.R.A. These groups wrongly have perverted justice to suit their fancy. Thus removing GOD given rights from a people who TRULY suffered from discrimination.


J Madden — June 7, 2008 @ 2:26 pm

Split hairs can also display an underlying truth.

That others have theoretically used ACRA to pervert justice is a red herring, gays have not done that. The use of ACRA (or whatever law) to allow gays their civil rights is not a perversion of justice, it IS justice. It is assigning a civil right (marriage) that heterosexuals enjoy to a class that has been deprived of that civil right.

That religious types feel it will somehow delete their civil rights is absurd. Your right to marry will NOT be infringed by their right to marry. Neither will it infringe on the rights of religous bigots, as amazing at that may be to them.


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 3:15 pm

Theory is mere conjecture until proven then it becomes fact. Check the facts. further gays do not have the RIGHT to marry.For it is written a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife.And the constitution backs that.
Now that that is said I will again say that history has shown us that when someone says I do not agree with homosexuality (not the person the ACT)they are beaten by the courts in order to try and FORCE them to except what they otherwise would not. Now I do not know about you but for me logic dictates that there is no way on earth or in Heaven that Our Almighty GOD makes a mistake or creates confusion when it has always been and will be one man and one women in marriage. And to try to prove otherwise is pure foolishness simply because it is a dead end endeavor. I will continue to fight for my right of religious liberty and protect the innocents of my children . In order to prevent confusion. What most seem to forget is it is the ACT that is not acceptable not the PERSON.


J Madden — June 7, 2008 @ 4:35 pm

1) The State of CA is about to (right-fully and legally) marry gays in droves. I actually know a judge that is ready to do his first gay marriage. So much for that argument.

2) Show me anywhere where the Constitution says a man and a woman are husband and wife. Don’t bother, you won’t find it.

3) Show me anywhere the courts have “beaten” anyone for gay rights. On the other hand, there are lots of examples of places where courts have persecuted gays for being gay.

4) Gays and your children have absolutely nothing to do with each other. In point of fact you need to worry with your children over heterosexuals, most likely someone you know that is straight including family members and friends, statistically speaking.

Your arguments are full of hyperbole and misinformation. If you want to try to have a point, do your homework and then provide actual evidence.

Hate is not a civil right.


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 6:12 pm

Fact: It has always been an implication in the constitution and an excepted standard of people. That is what this whole ordeal with same sex marriage has been about. Because Homosexuals want that implication
removed and or include same sex as a form accepted marriage. Remember the constitution was based on 27 Biblical principals.
There is a very good case in point written above by Alan J. Reinach.
Should you need more for your knowledge file may I suggest you Google it out.
Homosexual marriage and my children have everything to do with each other. Life is tough enough without people adding the confusion of mincing moral standards.
I am sorry you wish to perceive people like myself that do not agree or condom this issue as being hateful.


J Madden — June 7, 2008 @ 6:51 pm

You’re just full of interesting things that have no basis in fact.

I don’t need to Google “marriage” in the Constitution because there AREN’T ANY. You simply need to read it. But since you seem to be unable or unwilling to check and provide sources or facts, let me provide you a link:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html

Regarding your “accepted standard of the people”:
Slavery was an “accepted standard of the people”, and in the bible no less. Polygamy was and is an “accepted standard of the people” in some places and in the bible. Female genital mutilation is an “accepted standard of the people”. Your version of “accepted standard of the people” isn’t much of a standard.

The Constitution was written by a lot of people that took great pains to keep church and state seperate. Alan and you seem to be trying to enforce your church views on something that is also a secular governmental institution, marriage. Fortunately, the Constitution DOES concern itself with keeping religion in check.

You don’t have to be sorry for being hateful, simply stop being hateful.

P.S. The Constitution was based on 27 biblical principles? That is a fascinating number, 27. Completely wrong, but fascinating.


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 8:31 pm

ah? I said……………………….There is a very good case in point written above by Alan J. Reinach.
Should you need more for your knowledge file may I suggest you Google it out. Please note nothing is said in that statement about marriage. This was an answer to your third question.
That said there is no need for you to be ticked off just because I don’t agree with you AND it is not MY hate it is yours And I am not going to take that. It’s yours and I can not and will not try to solve it for you. People cry all the time they hate me, they hate me simply because someone won’t agree with them and tell them it is alright to do what ever they want regardless of who it hurts.
I am simply one of those people who will not tell you what you want to hear. It is not right for anyone to try to take away another persons moral standing.


Larry M — June 7, 2008 @ 8:44 pm

As I stated in an earlier blog. There are two camps involved in the rights of humans. The first, the one advocating Natural Law as given to all intelligent beings & backed by the Declaration of Independence & scriptures. The other, Positivism, whereas, man or government decides what is best for all. As much as I personally am against all sin, not sinners, we all have the right given us by the Sovreign of the universe to choose whom we will serve. Our own lusts, actuated by our fallen human nature, or the Almighty. We as believers should do what our Savior & the disciples did. Warn of the judgement of sin. I have yet to see in Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy, where we use the government to get our way. John the Baptist had a private talk with Herod about not marrying his brothers wife. Paul talked to the ruler of Rome, Nero, about the Gospel. Please show me in Scripture where our Savior tried to lgislatevly change the laws of the land or even the disciples. Homosexual pedophilia, sex with slaves, abortion, were rampant & legal in their time. It has & always will be accomplished by an individual response to the Gospel. Not by legislating morality between consenting adults. Oh, that we can be as wise as snakes & have spiritual discernment. The beauty of our Omnipotent Creator is, He never forces anyone. That is what the father of lies & a murderer from the beginning does. As believers we must warn the world of the judgement that is happening right now. Our probation is nearly up. Love one another as our Precious Savior loves us. But by no means will the wicked, who make excuses for their, our, depravity, whether it be sexual sin, bigotry, self righteousness, be found guiltless. Prophecy has shown us that we are in the last days. Violence fills the earth, sexual immorality, heterosexual & homosexual, even zoophilia, divorce, etc.., fill the earth. Read Ez.9. Only those who are crying & sighing for the sin that is rampant in this earth, will be given the seal. That is having a broken heart for the eternal destruction of the wicked. What camp are we in? Being rude & judgmental? Making lame excuses for our desires & lusts of the flesh & feeding it? Or are we truly crucifying the flesh daily? There is a bigger picture here. The Adventist church or any other church, has no right to take away the liberty of conscience, no matter what arena it is. May we all see how truly wretched, miserable, sick from head to toe, we really are. I thank the Father every day for the infinite sacrifce, in His Son, that he gave me. I thank my Savior for His love, faith, righteousness, forgivness, compassion, that He has given us all, if only we would accept it. May the Almighty have mercy & patience with us. May we accept that & pass it on to others.


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 10:04 pm

Right now, Gay marriage is constitutional under our Constitution. That is why a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT must be put in place to RESTRICT the freedom of gay people to marry.

Again, I do not believe that gay marriage is Godly or Right, but I REFUSE to use the power of the STATE to enforce my beliefs.

Adventists used to understand this concept - they worked for religious liberty of all, including Wiccans and athiests, but they come to an abrupt stop and do an absolute reversal when it comes to homosexuals.

I do not see how gay marriage will hurt me or my family anymore than divorces in my own heterosexual community will do so.

If the church wants to continue on this course of action, then they will be using the BEAST POWER to enforce their religious goals.

This same reasoning, that the STATE must enforce the MORAL CODE OF THE CHURCH, will be used against ADVENTISTS in the FUTURE.


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 10:20 pm

One more point:

At Creation, God instituted two things - the sanctity of marriage and the sanctity of the Sabbath. They are each as holy as the other.

There is disagreement on which is the holy day. There is disagreement on whether marriage is only two people, or two people of the opposite sex.

Religious liberty ministry would not exist in the Adventist Church were it not for the fact that their right to keep Saturday Sabbath has been under attack. So they fight for the rights of the Sunday keeper alongside the Saturday keeper.

SABBATH - ADVENTISTS SAY, “We think that Sunday is a false Sabbath, but we respect your right to keep Sunday as the Sabbath just as we want you to respect our right to keep Saturday as the only Sabbath.”

MARRIAGE - Adventists SHOULD say, “We think that homosexual marriage is a false marriage, and respect your right to homosexual marriage just as we want you to respect our right to practice heterosexual marriage as the only true marriage.”

MARRIAGE - BUT Adventists ARE instead saying, “We think that homosexual marriage is a false marriage and forbid you from practicing it because it is a false marriage.”

SABBATH - IN THE FUTURE, others will say, “We think that the Saturday Sabbath is a false Sabbath and forbid you from keeping it because it is a False Sabbath.

When we do not fight for the rights of others, how will we respond? It is an issue of FREEDOM, not an issue of who is right.


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 10:41 pm

Does Attorney Reinach view gay marriage as a religious issue or a secular issue? Does he want to enforce his religious views on the American people? http://churchstate.org/article.php?id=72

Here is why he says gay marriage is wrong and should be opposed:

1. Gay marriage constitutes an assault on both the grace and law of God.

2. The law of God teaches us to express our sexuality in the context of heterosexual marriage.

3. The Adventist voice needs to be heard affirming the eternal and objective nature of the law of God.

4. Where the left would exclude religious values from the debate, we can affirm that religious values can legitimately inform public policy, but only in the social moral sphere. Where the right would tend to apply religious values not only to social moral issues like marriage, but to religion directly, Adventists need to reaffirm the separation of church and state.

IN OTHER WORDS, Adventists apparently want to see their religious beliefs become law, insofar as the Sabbath is left alone!

This is not about freedom, people!


Eli — June 7, 2008 @ 10:47 pm

there’s a basic principle neglected in many post’s here,

guys are leaving out be how you wish the others are to you, it does apply here,
we’ve been hearing all our life how the church’s administration fought for rights to call saturday holy in times when sunday observance was dominant, and people at large are making a fuss becouse now they think their way of life when it comes to sanctity of marrage, they think it’s threatended by opening legal marrage for queer people. in the mean time, it’s those people who have no legal protection or sucurity, until now for californians and who knows for how much longer in many states where the churches rule.

and at federal level for australians where i am


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 10:53 pm

uh? Keeping the Sabbath is a matter of respect and duty.
Homosexuality is a matter of morality.
Think about the effects of instituted same sex marriages. And the rights YOU will also loose if we are not willing to allow our selfs to publicly voice the difference between right and wrong.
I also must ask What do you stand for?


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 10:56 pm

So the Sabbath is not an issue of morality?

Again, fighting for the freedoms of Adventists while ignoring the freedoms of others. This inconsistency will come back to bite.


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 10:58 pm

Christians chafed under Nero, but took full advantage of governmental power under Constantine to suppress others.

There are no Sunday laws now, so Adventists can take advantage of governmental power to suppress others.


Susan — June 7, 2008 @ 11:01 pm

One other point I should raise - I have written the above with the assumption that Attorney Reinach speaks for the church and that he is expressing what he has been asked to express. If this is not the case and that the church is still evaluating the issue, please clarify.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 7, 2008 @ 11:29 pm

Georgia, I cannot believe how far off base you are. You throw out comments without any explanation, such as:”Think about the effects of instituted same sex marriages. And the rights YOU will also loose if we are not willing to allow our selfs to publicly voice the difference between right and wrong.”

Susan, what CIVIL rights will YOU lose???? Name one - Please!!

Also, as a Sabbitarian, I must say that it is also a RELIGIOIUS belief - Do you really think that you have any right to try to impose it upon others? Just where in left field are you coming from? We are not talking religion, but rather about tax benefits, insurance benefits, death benefits —– Please find something regarding those benefits in the bible for me!! Good Luck.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Tom — June 7, 2008 @ 11:31 pm

Ok I have read all this stuff you people have been sending out so I have one ? for all of you Do You stand for God or the World You can only stand for one you Either stand for God and his Word or You stand for the World you cant stand for both and expect God to bless You


wanda — June 7, 2008 @ 11:35 pm

law, rights, wrong, right and issue of Freedom, I think the true issue sould and always be what God said goes and if one would read the bible in the way it was ment, not just taking a part of the scripture and running with it the truth would be seen on how and what God want and should be done. everyone should do ALL the research to get to the truth


Georgia — June 7, 2008 @ 11:46 pm

SS Howard if you are not able to keep up.


Larry M — June 7, 2008 @ 11:54 pm

Susan. There are blue laws on the books in alot of states. When our high school wanted to have our olympics at a public school on Sunday, we couldn’t do it until after 1 o’clock because the loud speakers would interrupt church services. Also in alot of cities you cannot work construction on Sundays for same reasons. Once again, we do not live in a theocracy. We do not have the right to legislate laws governing moral issues regarding consenting adults, in most areas. We would be making an image to the Beast if we legislate biblical moral issues between consenting adults, as Susan stated.


Susan — June 8, 2008 @ 12:10 am

Ironically, perhaps Attorney Reinach expressed my point about the church using the power of the state the best.

“The symbolism of forming an image of the beast is the same thing as setting up the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. The abomination is when the church unites her spiritual authority with the civil power of the state, in a misguided effort to enforce truth and to advance the kingdom of God.”

. . .

“So when the United States reunites civil and religious authority, and at the bidding of the church, uses the power of the state to punish religious dissent, America will form an image of the first beast, and will bring in the final manifestation of the abomination that makes desolate.”

. . .

“How does this come about? It happens because the church corrupts the gospel, loses the power of God, and becomes cozy and intimate with the power of the state. In Revelation, this is described as adultery and fornication. The church is supposed to be the bride of Christ. The church is supposed to become intimate only with Jesus. So when the church abandons Christ in favor of state power, this is spiritual adultery. The church is symbolized as a harlot, riding on the beast. It is the church who is on top, holding the reins. She is calling the shots.”

“These garments are Christ’s righteousness. Today, the Christian world is satisfied simply to believe in Christ. While some are hungering and thirsting for righteousness, the preachers aren’t teaching that this righteousness is even necessary. It is enough simply to believe, or to recite the sinner’s prayer, or to speak in tongues, or to give a big fat check to the church and vote a certain way, and then, you’re on Jesus’ team. You’re in, baby. Where is righteousness?

“Righteousness is what other people are supposed to do, and we’re going to pass laws to make them!

“This is nakedness. This is shameful.”

Alan Reinach - http://churchstate.org/article.php?id=251


Kay — June 8, 2008 @ 2:53 am

With the way the world is looking, one thing we do need to understand is “what is my relationship with Jesus Christ our Risen Savior”. We need to pray and search that we are each ready for whatever comes next. The winds of strife and polarization are blowing. Are we too busy pointing to the issues that gets our hearts pumping or are we pointing each other to the foot of the cross where our sins are paid in full. Matthew 24 tells us of the many stifes to befall the last days, we are told that as in the days of Noah so it will be in the last days. Yes, we are to fight for Religious Liberties, yes we should be loving and accepting and show Jesus’ love to the sinners great and small without condemnation and judgement. Yes, we should be sounding the warning that soon the wrath of God will be poured out. But those that are watching and praying for the coming of the Son of God should also be Praising God and praying for His Spirit to rest upon us that soon and very soon the last trumpet will sound and we can all see the face of Jesus. We do not want to be one to have said “almost we almost surrendered fully to God but we are lost”. For soon the sky will be unfolding, preparing for the entrance of our Redeamer face to face. When we behold Him in all His glory, we will be able to say Heaven is cheap enough and the trials of this life will be forever behind us. Look at the bigger picture here and praise God that soon His coming will forever change us in the twinkle of a moment.


J Madden — June 8, 2008 @ 6:53 pm

For those that are making this about morality and the law…..

Since when do Adventists use the law to enforce their version of morality? I mean Sabbatarianism is an almost uniquely Adventist Christian belief. If you’re using the law to enforce your version of morality on others than you would presumably be okay with enforcing sabbatarianism on others if you are going to enforce anti-homosexuality on others. By that “moral” reasoning, the people that are passing Sunday laws are RIGHT, because they are in the majority and they are passing their morals on YOU.

If you are going to be consistent and non-hypocritical, you should back the rights and freedomes of others, including and especially gays, if you want the rights and freedoms yourself.


Bro. John — June 8, 2008 @ 8:14 pm

While freedom of conscience is crucial to God’s people all over the world as well as here in the U.S., it in no way means or infers lawlessness. There is no prohibition in Scripture against the making of laws so long as they coinside with God’s word and the principles contained therein. To allow homosexual marriage and so-called rights while, at the same time, disallowing religious institutions the same privilige is what is truely hypocritical here.

If we were collectively following God’s word in our legislating, we would find that there is no real force used just vas God doesn’t force. As long as we seek to legislate only on the last 6 and not on the first 4 of His 10 commandments, we’re safe. We should never seek to enforce our fellow man’s relationship with God (the first 4).

The trouble with the homosexual agenda (and there is one) is that force is exactly what they seek to do both directly and indirectly. By the way, Christians aren’t the only ones who think homosexuality is a very sinful lifestyle choice. Just ask our Islamic brethren what they think of it.

Look, if someone is bent on jumping off a cliff, that’s their right. Just don’t expect me to pat them on the back and say it’s ok. That’s the equivalent of dragging me over with them.


Georgia — June 8, 2008 @ 8:54 pm

Thank you bro.John


Alan Reinach — June 8, 2008 @ 9:40 pm

Michael’s comment, above, is very revealing of the nature of the logic that we face in advocating for religious freedom. He declares that homosexuality is a protected class, but religion is NOT a protected class. This is essentially where the California Supreme Court has come down, on a practical level, in ruling for gays and against religious liberty.

Michael, whatever happened to the rights of conscience? Whatever happened to our respect for the right to believe differently, and to practice those beliefs? In your view, such beliefs should always be subordinated to “public policy” or the will of the majority, but that is a formula for tyranny. This is not liberty.

Also, I vigorously reject that the religious view of homosexuality as a sin requires “homophobia” or hatred of gays. However, I do understand that believers have done a very poor job of hating the sin and loving the sinner. Most sinners, treated to such rhetoric, feel the hatred, not the love.


Alan Reinach — June 8, 2008 @ 9:48 pm

Susan quoted from an old article of mine, which I was happy to go back and re read, and says that my position is hostile to liberty! I was certainly startled to see such a conclusion. With clearer insight, one can see that the secular perspective she espouses is hostile to liberty.

The secular view says: religious perspectives are unwelcome in the public debate. If you hold a religious view of marriage, you cannot vote your conscience, and you cannot advocate your religious view.

This secular view denies liberty and democratic voice to the religious.

We do not advocate that secular perspectives be ruled out of order in the public debate. Nor are we advocating the legislating of a religious viewpoint, as Susan suggests.

We believe that marriage as between a man and a woman is fundamental to the survival and health and well being of a society, and that there are ample secular justifications for the state to preserve such an arrangement, and to protect it. To illustrate the point, imagine the impact on society should all its members choose to marry someone of the same gender!


J Madden — June 8, 2008 @ 10:09 pm

Alan,

The issue is not whether religion is a protected class. The issue is are the religious a MORE protected class and the answer is in the affirmative, nearly anywhere one looks. The President is a Christian for Zeus’ sake, and a bible-thumping one at that.

The right of conscience and to believe differently is sometimes curtailed at racism and intolerance, as you well know. Your religious liberty does not extend to hate and bigotry. That you complain about that, speaks volumes. The tyranny of the majority lies with Christians (73% of population) not with gays (6-10%). That you attempt to protect yourselves as a class against them is frankly, absurd.

You are absolutely right that your “message” of “hating the sin and loving the sinner” fails. Many of us see it for what it is, a hypocritical subterfuge that breeds intolerance while professing some other idea. Your apparent support of Bob Jones Universities racist policy when they themselves have admitted the mistake, spoke volumes. You should not rue that the government punished Bob Jones U for their racist policy. It is to be hailed as the right decision for liberty and America.

“Hating the sin and loving the sinner” is translated as “Hate the sinner, but do it subtly, and be sure and keep them down and deny them liberty.”


Zequias — June 8, 2008 @ 10:48 pm

You can continue using the fake statement “love the sinner and hate their sin” speaking of homosexuals, if you want. But just understand that along the line a family will have to hate and discard their own kids because of this stand. It has happened in the past and will happen again. Just remember two things:

a - No one chooses his/her sexual orientation, unless you can prove for sure you chose to be heterosexual.

and

b - Gays are born from heterosexuals. They are not aliens. Therefore God cares for them as much as He cares for you.


angelica — June 8, 2008 @ 11:16 pm

“Every individual exerts an influence in society. In our favored land, every voter has some voice in determining what laws shall control the nation. Should not that influence and that vote be cast on the side of such things as freedom of religion, moral issues, temperance, virtue, freedom from drug abuse, and forthright honesty. In other words, those factors or issues that will tend to improve societal living. Why not vote your convictions? There surely is nothing wrong in this. In fact it is your right!”
quoted from Dr.Pipim about voting!!


Michael DePaula — June 9, 2008 @ 12:45 am

Alan,

No one is ruling “against religious liberty”. The California Supreme Court simply chose to extend the meaning of “religious liberty” to include bigotry against a group of a large number of its citizens on account of their sexuality. As such, it is your interpretation of what constitutes “religious liberty” that is being called into question.

You asked what happened to the rights of conscience and I answer, “Nothing happened.” Your conscience is not and was never the final arbiter in determing the civil rights of others. Your conscience is simply a mechanism by which you judge the rightness and wrongness of your own actions. Thankfully, the public has a collective, secular idea of what constitutes good, legal behavior despite individuals whose consciences might otherwise disagree.

You ask what happened to your right to belive differently and I answer, “Nothing happened.” You obviously STILL believe differently and you are certainly entitled to. But you simply cannot put your belief into action WHEN it deprives other citizens of their rights. To that end, there are a number of religious beliefs that have been determined to be illegal in either individual states or in the nation as a whole–polygamy, ritual use of prohibited narcotics, incest, ritual sacrifice, etc. The excuse of “freedom to believe” is not a license for ANY actions you or your religion deem appropriate. Such actions must still be TEMPERED by the State so that your rights end where another’s begin.

You speak of tyranny as if you–a Christian in a nation that is majority Christian–are enduring some sort of persecution here. You have yet to demonstrate how extending the legal secular rights to married homosexuals is damaging to you as a Christian. It does not inform or coerce your doctrine, it does not force your conscience, and it certainly does not force you to change your own marriage or relationships.

On the other hand, it DOES force you to treat homosexuals civilly which, I suspect, is the heart of the problem. You’re not interested in civility, you’re interested in witnessing! And if the State tells you that his homosexuality is irrelevant to his wish to adopt, rent an apartment or get his suit fitted, you will lose your opportunity to control him by punishing his “sinful behavior” through the withholding of services. In your eyes, not saying anything is equated with condoning his behavior. And rather than trust that he can sort out his own spiritual beliefs on his own, you want to jump in and settle them for him by forcing his hand.

Thankfully, as with the KKK car salesman, the state CAN force you to sell a black man his car even if it can’t demand that you love him for being black.


Michael DePaula — June 9, 2008 @ 12:47 am

Edit:

The second sentence in the above post should read, “The California Supreme Court simply chose NOT to extend the meaning of “religious liberty” to include bigotry against a group of a large number of its citizens on account of their sexuality”.


Georgia — June 9, 2008 @ 1:04 am

The concept of loving the sinner but hating the sin is in fact simple.
It goes like this………… A child does something wrong and the parent punishes the child. Now does that mean the parent hates the child? No, It means the parent hates the action that was wrong and brought about the need for correction but still loves the child. This is the same concept Jesus gave us. You see we are all children and we go astray. Jesus hates the sin we have committed but not His sinning child. Along with that He says — Thou can not serve GOD and mammon.
The concept of moral standing was and is given to us by GOD. Without morals and standers we have nothing but chaos. A GOD fearing person who expresses they choose not to render a service to a homosexual because their conscience will not allow them to speaks nothing of hate. Rather it speaks volumes about the love that person has for you. And to loose the liberty to do so would and will be very sad.
Now I know that many on here will disagree with me on this and that’s okay. But it all comes down to the fact that immorality and morality can never co-exist. Until the Great Day of GOD ALMIGHTY this will be a thorn in the hearts of mankind.


Tom Chatt — June 9, 2008 @ 3:13 am

Alan, based on your comments, you either haven’t read or haven’t understood the Supreme Court’s opinion. Nowhere did the court say that sexual orientation had an elevated status superior to religion. In fact the Court’s opinion specifically identifies religion as a protected class (see pp. 97-98), and specifically notes that the decision will NOT impinge on religious liberty. On p. 117 they write “Finally, affording same-sex couples the opportunity to obtain the designation of marriage will not impinge upon the religious freedom of any religious organization, official, or any other person; no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

We Americans cherish religious liberty, but it cannot be absolute. I’m curious as to your theory on this. Do you espouse that White Supremacists should be allowed to discriminate against non-whites in all their dealings, because that is their religion? Do you espouse that Muslim Americans should be allowed to try people under “sharia” courts and sentence them to mutilation (e.g. cutting off thieves’ hands) because that is their religion? Do you espouse that Native Americans should be able to smoke peyote because that is their religion? Do espouse that FLDS Mormon men be allowed to marry multiple underage girls because that is their religion?

You can either let anyone do whatever they want (anarchy), or you can impose a majoritarian theocracy (tried many times before, inevitably leads to corruption and war), or you can have a constitutional democracy like we have, where the government ideally provides a framework within which its diverse citizens are free to exercise their liberty and conscience within minimal constraints necessary to allow everyone to get along.

In such a society, whenever individuals voluntarily enter into commerce with society (e.g., selling goods, providing services, renting property), it may be necessary to require them to treat all people equally, even if that may violate their conscience or religion. Where else would you draw the line? Would you advocate for stores, restaurants, hotels and apartments that can turn people away based on their race or their religion?


Michael DePaula — June 9, 2008 @ 3:15 am

Georgia,

Actually a better analogy to the “love the sinner, hate the sin” mantra would be:

A child has an attraction to the color purple and the parent punishes the child because they (and the God they worship) claim that to love purple as a color is a “sin”. So even though the parent loves their kid, they are fraught over the reasons why their kid would choose to love the color purple. Since the kid can no more choose to love another color than you or I could, he naturally grows up in a tortured household where he believes it is not a good thing for him to be himself despite his not being able to change himself (or worse, praying for a change to happen and it never happening).

Morality is not something owned by one person, least of all a religious group like Christianity. Morality is a tendency or a working towards living in such a way that causes as little harm to others as possible. It may not always be possible and there is no guarantees that it will be easy. Nevertheless “moral people” strive to cause as little harm to others as possible.

Following the “moral” dictates of an authority figure is, in fact, the LEAST moral position one could take as it requires substituting one’s own good judgment and using the judgment of another instead (though, indeed, to say that the authority figure’s morality is “good” seems to require you to first say it is)! As such, using one’s reason, thinking it through, and examining the issue at hand borrowing from as much experience as possible seems to be the best way to make moral decisions in regard to a particular action.

Lastly, I think you misspoke but in any case, contrary to your claims, morality and immorality DO exist together in the world everywhere you look. Some people behave immorally and others don’t. And this tension seems to be a very accurate picture of our world as it is. Of course, you may wish it to be different and it may certainly counter your visions of an afterlife or “utopia”, nonetheless, immorality and morality both exist at the same time in our world. Indeed, you cannot have white without black.


Zequias — June 9, 2008 @ 11:40 am

Georgia wrote “A GOD fearing person who expresses they choose not to render a service to a homosexual because their conscience will not allow them to speaks nothing of hate. Rather it speaks volumes about the love that person has for you. And to loose the liberty to do so would and will be very sad.
Now I know that many on here will disagree with me on this and that’s okay. But it all comes down to the fact that immorality and morality can never co-exist”

What is moral about not rendering a service to a homosexual just because you do not approve of homosexuality, and then call that love for that person? You sound completely misguided.

What’s immoral for a homosexual may not be the same for heterosexuals. To a gay person “immoral” is to marry someone of the opposit sex against one’s true sexuality. It’s to do it to calm the minds of family members and friends. It’s to fake happiness a whole life while dreading every moment of a lieing life. How would a heterosexual feel in such a circumstance? No matter what has been said and all the good insights given here, some of you inssist in calling homosexuals immoral for being just different, yet they were created by the same God.

It’s incredible that some of you will still think homesexuals could live as heterosexuals, getting involved with an “innocent bystander spouse” which most of the time does not see the truth, and think that it’s moral for someone to do such.


wanda — June 9, 2008 @ 12:08 pm

in regaurd to Georgias comment, my question to you is who did Jesus go to and eat with, the tax collector, the sinners,sick and all who was in need of healing, Jesus came to serve and save ALL, we are not to turn our back on anyone in need, and if we want or claim to follow Jesus then we need to do as he did. Jesus said LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU,


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 9, 2008 @ 12:57 pm

Alan, I cannot believe that you actually stated “To illustrate the point, imagine the impact on society should all its members choose to marry someone of the same gender!”

I think that you defeated yourself there! It would require that even YOU would so choose - can you imagine that?? I don’t think so, most heterosexuals cannot. Neither can a Christian homosexual imagine marrying a heterosexual, because it is very difficult to give each other the total commitment that marriage should involve. Having sex is simple and animalistic - the rest of the relationship is what suffers!

I had a gay partner for 37 years before he passed away. We came back to the SDA church, lived celibately in love for the last ten of them, we were on the church board, and started a gay ministry bringing other gay people into the church. We could not have gotten through to those gay people had we been heterosexually married - because they would not accept us as knowing how they felt. God can use gays to reach other gays, that straights cannot even start to approach with the bible.

Now tell me why we should not have been entitled to the same CIVIL benefits as you and yours?? Not all homosexuals are evangelists or sinners, BUT do not impede the work of those who are. You will as a person in authority, be punished even more severely for doing so, and that is biblical!!!!

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Ellen — June 9, 2008 @ 3:25 pm

I just want one of you to answer this question: Where are my rights?? We live in Massachusetts and my 6 year old child is being read a book about 2 “kings” getting married. I am completely disgusted and do not want my child to be taught that homosexuality is normal. This has happened because of the abomination of same-sex “marriage” being forced on the public. Again, where are my rights? And please do not compare it with race. A gay man can deceide whether to engage in homosexual behavior. A black man can NOT decide to be white.
Also, aren’t sociopaths “born” that way. Shoud we allow them to act on their desires? Same with pedophiles.


Marsha — June 9, 2008 @ 3:51 pm

Ellen, your right is to send your child to a private Christian school that will teach the child the values that you want your child to learn. Or better yet, you have a right to educate your child at home during family worship about what is right and wrong. I hope that answers your question.


Ellen — June 9, 2008 @ 5:08 pm

Why should I have to pay for private school? My child should be able to go to public school and not be taught anything that is against his parents moral teachings. Why are they forcing me to accept a lifestyle I know is destructive and un-natural? What does a book about 2 men marrying got to do with basic reading, writing and arithmetic?


Michael DePaula — June 9, 2008 @ 5:37 pm

Ellen, as Marsha so eloquently pointed out in so many words, you don’t have the right to stop your child from learning about the world as others see it. What you DO have the right to do is teach them your values at home when the schoolday is over. If you can’t or don’t want to pay for private school then that will be your option (and should be even if you send them to private school). If you want your kids to get an education that will mean they will be exposed to things you might not wish them to be exposed to. And yet that is the process of growing up, maturing and learning how to live in the world and be a decent human citizen.


Ellen — June 9, 2008 @ 6:03 pm

Being a decent human being does NOT include approving of sodomy.


Larry M — June 9, 2008 @ 6:04 pm

To Ellen, & whom ever else. To begin with, public schools, run by the government, is unconstitutional. Hey, welcome to the real world of alot of unconstitutional programs, laws, interfering with our Natural Law rights. Deal with it the way our Savior & the disciples did. Give unto Caesars what is Caesars, & unto the Almighty what is His. In the beginning of this used to be great nation, the children were home schooled, for the most part. As you well know, we ought to obey the Almighty, rather than man. The less we criticize others & work out our own salvation in fear & trembling, the better off all will be.


Ellen — June 9, 2008 @ 6:12 pm

Who do I ask to get my property tax bill reduced by the amount of money that goes to the public school? I do not want to support them any more.
You are all assuming I am religious, when I never said anything about religion. I just can figure out that the human body was not designed to have sex with another human being of the same sex. DUH!


Larry M — June 9, 2008 @ 6:24 pm

Ellen. This is about religious & secular rights as protected by the Constitution. If you aren’t religious, then this shouldn’t be a big issue for you. Granted, you do have issues about letting homosexuality taught in school that it is a good thing. Good luck about school taxes. It is a losing battle. Sell your home & rent. You won’t have to worry about those taxes then. Only all the other taxes spent for the arts & their depravity, an illegal & immoral war, & I could go on & on. Maybe you should find religion & become a nun & seclude yourself from society at large. I am not being mean spirited here. We live in a very bad world & good luck in your endeavour to do what your conscience dictates.


Zequias — June 9, 2008 @ 6:44 pm

Ellen,

What is wrong with a story of two kings getting married anyway? As long as the story does not go into any sexual activity the kid does not need to know, it’s just and probably making the kid aware that some people are attracted to others or their same sex. If you kid was born heterosexual there’s nothing he hears or is told about that will make him a homosexual. Why is it that some parents want to hide the realities of this world to their kids? How will they mature if kept unaware of important things?

Why are you so fearful? Does that mean that you would hate and reject your kid if he in his teens or later tell you he is gay? If that happens (which I hope it does not, God forbid!) I bet he’ll tell you he did not choose what he is. I can see you are one of those radical homophobics by the way you express yourself. Do you realize that none of us has the right to put down any soul for which Jesus paid a high price? Everyone human being is very precious in the eyes of God.

By the way, do you consider yourself without the need of Jesus as your personal Saviour? Do you realize that without Jesus we are all lost sinners in the eyes of God? You need to calm down and realize gays are God’s children too. Don’t condemn anyone. Don’t classify anyone either. God is the only judge.


Michael DePaula — June 9, 2008 @ 7:00 pm

Ellen, in case you haven’t read my other posts, I should make it clear that I am not religious either. I used to be an SDA and am now an atheist. As such, your comments about gays not being “designed to have sex [with each other]” are clearly misguided since none of us were designed with any ulterior purposes and motives involved. Sexuality is our and the rest of the animal kingdom’s way of furthering itself and within nearly every niche there are homosexual, heterosexual, and even asexual creatures. That humans should parallel this is not and should not be surprising to you. Along these lines, not everyone need procreate in order to have meaning in life and be “good citizens”. Your argument against gays not designed to have sex with each other is absurd given that gays do have very good sex with each other which is what spawned this ridiculous “debate” in the first place!

As it should be obvious by now, being a Christian or not being one has nothing to do with the variety of opinions one can hold. And while I disagree with your fears over homosexuality, I can still support your right to express them.

Nonetheless, I think your fears and energies are misplaced if spent pursuing the demonization of homosexuality. Frankly, if you’re not gay then I don’t know why you concern yourself with the sexual specifics of the personal lives of gay people. Even if your kids never went to public school, they will at some point encounter someone who is gay, or some situation where sexuality is being discussed, or have to listen to a lecture on homosexuality among mountain goats in some far-off college biology lecture.

For all intents and purposes you might as well wish to homeschool your kids to protect them from even heterosexual sexual education since, no doubt, you may find something in there that disagrees with your liking. But this would be absurd and a waste of time.

Education is just that…teaching objectively about things…about how the way the world works. Gay or not, we are all human beings and, as such, your child needs to learn to treat everyone–regardless of sexual preference–as fellow human beings even while being a heterosexual (if, in the end, they are in fact heterosexual). The opposite of this (which you seem to be advocating) is your wish to teach your child that homosexuality is somehow dangerous and/or wrong. Just imagine the world of hurt you’ll be in if they themselves are gay or eventually learn to disagree with you!

I say, teach your kids to form their own opinions. Parents, especially religious parents, could learn a lot from being less authoritarian and more facilitarian.

Lastly, if you have a problem with your local school district and or taxes, take it up with the town office and mayor.


Zequias — June 9, 2008 @ 11:28 pm

Michael,

This has been an extensive discussion, mainly because we use the opportunity to educate a few and invite them listen to the other side. There are very few opportunities as the one given to all here.

Your post above spells it all the way. If someone is still in fear about homosexuality, enough has been said here. Loving christians would have understood by now the lessons given. May God help the perssisting ones in their stubborn ignorance, which they surely choose to hold on to.


Michael DePaula — June 9, 2008 @ 11:37 pm

Zequias,

Thank you for your kind words.


Georgia — June 9, 2008 @ 11:56 pm

So? Do you think you have changed peoples choices? I don’t think so! But nice try!
Once again we have NO FEAR of you!And there is NO HATE for you! Just get the big picture here and try to understand that not all people are going to agree with you. And like me will not change for you.

Now can one of you please explain to me (with facts) How can you prove beyond a doubt that GOD made you homosexual?
And then please explain to me how in your view you will not work to remove the religious Liberty we so enjoy now?


Michael DePaula — June 10, 2008 @ 12:06 am

Georgia,

Who are you addressing? I am not gay though I do have an immediate SDA family member who is. Thus, this topic is relevant to me. In addition, since atheists like myself and Adventists share a common goal of church-state separation, I find myself commenting on NARLA’s blogs and cultivating content for my own blog at the same time.

I certainly have no interest in removing any of your religious liberties so long as you don’t do as Alan has done and claim liberty where none actually exists.

As an individual U.S. citizen living in abroad in Japan, I can only vote and influence my state and federal representatives just as you can. Otherwise, it is my hope to help stimulate good conversation/debate and perhaps get Christians to consider a different view than what they might otherwise hear by surrounding themselves with people with whom they already agree.


Georgia — June 10, 2008 @ 12:21 am

SS I guess I am addressing anyone who can answer my questions.


Jim Bowman — June 10, 2008 @ 1:45 am

I began reading this topic with the presumption that I would certainly be voting for the constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage in California.

I have changed my mind and will be voting no. I don’t have to like homosexuality, but I will not use my faith and religion as grounds to take away the rights of others.


Tom Chatt — June 10, 2008 @ 2:39 am

Georgia, you ask “How can you prove beyond a doubt that GOD made you homosexual?” I’m not sure what kind of proof I could offer to dispel your doubts completely. I can only offer my honest testimony. Being gay was never something that I chose, it was something that I discovered about myself, to my immense surprise, confusion, denial, and dismay. Like most of us, I was raised by loving parents who planted in me dreams of growing up to be like them, find a loving partner, and raise a family of my own. When I first realized that I was gay, I felt like all my dreams of what my life was supposed to be like had been torn into shreds, and I didn’t know what I was supposed to replace them with. Nonetheless, it was very clear to me that there was no denying that I was gay. Looking back, I could see that it had been true all along, and explained so clearly why things never quite worked the way they were supposed with all those girlfriends that I really wanted to like but could never fully give myself to. Over time, I came to realize that there were many other people like me, and that I could choose to live a life being faithful to the family values I was raised with, just with another man rather than a woman. That was the only “choice” I could make that was faithful to my values of family, honesty, and integrity. To have chosen instead to marry a woman despite being gay would have been not only unfulfilling for me, but dishonest and unfair to the woman, since our relationship would never be completely what it should be. To have chosen to be single and celibate would have been possible, but would have made me unhappy, would have made my parents unhappy, and I truly believe would have made God unhappy, for squandering the gifts and opportunities he has given me to be a more complete, more faithful, more integral person. Instead, as a married man, I can practice the virtue of altruism in living not just for myself but for my husband, and we can strive to live up to the example of our parents (and hopefully set our own example) of a lifelong loving commitment to each other through all of life’s trials and rewards.

If you think that being gay is some choice or preference, like a preference for blondes or redheads, or an inclination, like a straight man’s temptation to be a womanizer, then you truly don’t understand how profound a part of one’s identity it is. I know that being gay is fundamentally who I am, and I believe as strongly as anything else I believe that this is how I was created, that it is a part of the infinite variations of God’s image, and that it is not inherently evil. I realize that may seem to contradict certain Bible verses as many have understood them. I can only agree with what my husband’s cousin said so eloquently said about it: “I know this is true, and I can’t answer all the questions about it. But I have a whole list of questions I want to ask God when I finally meet Him face to face, and this is near the top of the list.”


Larry M — June 10, 2008 @ 11:40 am

To Tom. It never ceases to amaze me how we justify how we are. Maybe it is ignorance on your part with what you stated, that God made you a homosexual. Understand this, we are all fallen humans with sinful desires of the flesh. We were created perfect in the beginning with no perverted appetites. Because of sin we all have sinful desires. Because of our Savior coming to this world in sinful flesh & condemning sin in that sinful flesh, He has shown the universe & this world that there is no excuse to give into our fallen state, ie, fleshly desires. We are to be recreated. Yes, we will still live in this sinful flesh with all of its yearnings, but as Paul said, I will serve the Savior with my mind since His mind should be in us. To state that God would be unhappy if you don’t live in a homosexual relationship is an astounding statement. It, like so many other deviate lifestyles, ie, pedophilia, zoophilia, fornication, gossip, lying, stealing, etc.., is an abomination to Him. We need to quit making excuses for our aberrant behavior & crucify the flesh.Too many people are calling evil good & good evil. We are talking about our eternal destiny here. Our selfish, carnal nature wants to dictate to us that our feelings are ok. It is a lie. We might as well state that God wants pedophile to marry & have sex with children, & marry a sheep & have sex with it, or live with multilple women & have sex with them. C’mon now, lets be honest about our depraved minds & flesh. I know what it is like to desire sexual sin. My proclivities lean toward aberrant sexual desires with women. God did not make me that way. It is hereditary from my family & sin. Shame on me if I blame God for making me that way. Those of you who think being gay is a choice, or liking children or animals, better wake up. It is our fallen nature prompted by heredity & cultivation. There are cases where men & women who are heterosexual, go to jail & learn or choose a homosexual lifestyle. After all, they only have the same sex to have sex with. Aberrant behavior is in all of us. Quit making excuses. I pray we all make the right choices of not giving in to our lusts. I do not want me or anyone on the outside looking in because of a lame excuse that God made me this way. Pray for me as I am praying for all, including Michael turned athiest, who will be thinking of me.


Georgia — June 10, 2008 @ 1:45 pm

Thank you Tom for giving your best explanation of how you understand this issue. However I am inclined to agree with Larry. Now before getting upset with me try to understand my view. I can see the struggle that people go through with homosexuality.It’s no different then being the alcoholic who truly wants freedom. I am just giving an example here and it might be the same as comparing apples and oranges but my point is I can understand what people must go through. However I just cannot see logic in someone saying GOD made them the way they are. Simply because we have all evidence that when it comes to truth and order that is the dynamics of the heavenly realm. Consider Governing Dynamics where one sits down to discover what it is we are lacking that keeps us trapped in our sinful state. The answer for me came as a shocking rush wow! it’s so simplistic. In this I considered the walk of Enoch. The one thing he found that we tend to miss was Enoch loved the Lord so much that he saw that he must completely surrender self and do only what was best for himself and the whole. In other words that is the how and why Heaven is perfect. There is no room for self because self does what is seemingly best for self regardless of who it hurts. That is our fallen nature. We think in the single not the plural and that is what keeps us from understanding the whole picture. However we have a Saviour that was so willing to give us just what we need that He died for us. Thereby we have hope .


Tom — June 10, 2008 @ 3:13 pm

What should the role of the state be? If marriage is a religious institution, then perhaps the state should stay out of the business of regulating it.


Georgia — June 10, 2008 @ 5:15 pm

Laws are guidelines set in place to lay a foundation of standards and morals that people can live by and go and reason together should a need arise. In other words they create order and not chaos. In the case of marriage it has two sides. Because it is both civil and faith based. Which makes it all the more complicated. The example was layed out for us long ago by GOD and further set in stone in the ten commandments. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Which also is a civil matter that sets in place the responsibility people have to each other of honesty and respect. So the role of the state\s should be to follow along these lines. However because some states are changing these guidelines the results do and will threaten the liberty (rights or freedoms) of others. How you may ask? By taking away ones liberty to say I do not agree and can not live at peace with that.


Michael DePaula — June 10, 2008 @ 7:28 pm

If this were not such a serious issue I would be inclined to laugh at the ability of so many otherwise rational adults to talk about the ten commandments, creation, etc. as being real events.

That you would let your lives be ruled by an archaic set of rules written by ancient sheepherders is one thing. That you would willingly deprive the rights of others based on the same writings is another matter entirely.

Truly faith, even in moderation, is showing itself to be dangerous. It demands respect for itself but does not grant it to others. It preaches peace and yet causes division. It cries “persecution” while it oppresses others.


Jim Bowman — June 10, 2008 @ 8:54 pm

It is concerning when people think that their religious liberty is threatened when they can no longer regulate the lives of other people. I was prepared to vote for the but I cannot do so in good conscience. God gave us the right to accept or deny Him. That is freedom - why deny the freedom of others when other lives are not in danger?

I have learned from this that I can no longer look to our religious liberty leaders for guidance on these issues. They refuse to take a stance on abortion where lives are at stake, but instead say gay people cannot get married.

No, not everybody is going to become gay. Also, not every elderly heterosexual couple will have children. At its basis is a religious argument that gay marriage be prohibited. As a true believer in religious liberty, I cannot support the church in this.


Larry M — June 10, 2008 @ 10:06 pm

To Michael De Paula. It is one thing to have a discussion about issues. It is another thing to be disrespectful & condescending. I am sorry you have such a dislike & seeming hatred for spiritual matters & people of faith. I get a sense from one of your statements that you were brought up in a domineering, legalistic atmosphere. If I am wrong, I apologize. I am sure what I am about to quote doesn’t matter to you, but here goes,”For God so loved Michael De Paula that He gave his only Son to die for you.” Of course I paraphrased.”A fool says in his heart there is no God.” May we all try & refrain from being rude about others beliefs or non beliefs. I respect your decision to turn away from the One Who gave Himself for you. By the way, So does He, as much as it breaks His heart. May you have a peaceful & joyous life in this short existence. Unfortunately you will be missing out on an eternity of joy.


Jim Bowman — June 10, 2008 @ 10:07 pm

I will pray for you, Larry, that you will come to an understanding of what religious liberty is all about. That you will see that you do not have to force your beliefs on others or force them to follow the will of God.


Larry M — June 10, 2008 @ 10:31 pm

Thankyou Jim for your prayers. I need them. If you read my comments you will see I am totaly & unequivocally against forcing anyone to beleive as I do, especially in the realm of making laws. I beleive that the constitution allows gay marriage, abortion & other such decisions as, we as free moral agents get to decide. As I stated earlier, in our Saviors time & the disciples, homosexual pedophelia was legal along with rampant abortion & having sex with slaves. I have yet to read in the Scriptures any attempt by the Savior or the disciples to change the states laws. Neither should we as pertains to consenting adults. This is not a theocracy. It is our duty, out of love for our fellow man,to warn of wrong decisions that affect their eternal welfare. Where
, in my statements have I said otherwise? I am like everyone else. Seeking wisdom, love for my fellow man. There is only One Judge, & that is our Savior, whether you beleive in Him or not. Thankyou for your feedback.


Michael DePaula — June 10, 2008 @ 10:43 pm

LarryM,

You have my permission to officially pull your foot out of your mouth now.

To the other readers, your comments provide an excellent example of why a human being should never judge another.

I have stated openly that I have no hatred or ill will towards any people of faith. My recent comments have merely centered around the idea that their measure of faith indirectly and directly causes them to act harmfully toward others. Of course, I believe that faith also causes people to do mental harm to their own bodies by asking them to believe in absurd claims and to deny the nature of reality, nevertheless it is a discussion to be had another time and place.

My Christian upbringing was nothing like you are imagining it to be. Indeed, I was a 5th generation Adventist and had/have very loving and compassionate family and friends, most of whom are still Adventists or otherwise religious to this day. I also have very fond memories of the 13 or so years I spent in the Adventist educational system, my only regret here being that I was “sheltered” by otherwise well-meaning folks from acquiring knowledge that was seen as anti-faith (I speak here of GLBT-issues, an education in evolutionary science, objective education in world religions, etc.).

Having spent the first 24 or so years of my life in the church, in missions and music ministries, and having contemplated becoming a minister myself as so many of my childhood friends did, I am quite aware of the issues surrounding faith and belief. Indeed, it was my intense desire to pursue truth wherever it leads that led me to study early Christian writings, philosophy, apologetics, and ultimately realize the honesty of atheism. Nevertheless, shedding one’s faith is not an easy process by any means, as worthwhile as I believe it to be. And this was all the more true for me precisely because I loved being a Christian and believed that God, Jesus, devils and demons actually existed. Having all of that shattered and having to deconvert/deprogram oneself is not a task that many feel up to do.

And while I don’t expect everyone to agree with my conclusions (though I’m excited that the numbers of deconversions are growing), the least you can do is to shut off that judgmental attitude you so willingly employ when faced with dissenting opinions.


Michael DePaula — June 10, 2008 @ 10:46 pm

Likewise, if I am overstating my case, then I apologize.


Larry M — June 11, 2008 @ 12:08 am

To Michael. As I stated, if my conclusion about your upbringing was wrong, I stated I was sorry. Being brought up an Adventist, I have seen, all too well, the legalism & hardline attitudes. My heart was going out to you, if that was the case. Sorry to offend you. That was not my purpose. Thankyou for your feedback. It helps me to look deeper into my motives for any comments. It is a tough world we live in with so many ideas. Like I said, I wish you peace & joy in your life. I cannot imagine the negative backlash, if there was any, in making such a tough decision. I am very happy you had loving parents that brought you up well. Alot don’t. You have been blessed.


Tom Chatt — June 11, 2008 @ 4:19 am

Georgia and Larry, I’m not upset and I appreciate your empathy with my “struggle”, but I see that I didn’t explain myself well enough. When I talked about the great dismay I experienced when I first realized that I was gay, I should have been more clear that my dismay gave way over time to acceptance and happiness. Being gay is quite different from being alcoholic. Being alcoholic is an ongoing struggle to resist actions that one later regrets. There is no such thing as a good alcoholic, nor a happy one. Being gay is having a capacity to love which is different (neither better nor worse, just different) than the “normal” one. What one makes of that capacity can be good or bad, and one can be happy or unhappy, same as with straight people. Being gay, in itself, is not a temptation to sin, any more than being straight is. Sure there are temptations associated with our sexuality (whether straight or gay), but it is also a capacity and a gift that can be used to answer more virtuous callings, and can provide the foundation for the lifelong loving commitment to another person.

I believe that we all have an inner moral compass, which is part of our created nature, and (ideally) nurtured by our parents’ upbringing. Admittedly, some people ignore their compass, or are less able to even read it, but I think it’s there for everybody. If you believe that God is good, and God’s creation is good, I think you have to believe in such a compass. One good way to read the moral compass is by joy. When we do truly good things — from major sacrifices down to small good-hearted gifts or deeds — we are rewarded by a profound joy that is not obtainable any other way. I hope that everyone reading this has experienced that joy, and knows what I am talking about. There is also, of course, perverse delight that can come from doing selfish things, and I regret that most everyone has probably experienced that too at some point in their lives. But those two are not the same feeling, and if you’re being honest, it’s not hard to tell the difference between the profound joy and the perverse delight. When we do wrong, even if we attempt to rationalize or justify it to ourselves, we can never be deeply satisfied in the same way as when we do good. I have been blessed to experience moments of that profound joy, from volunteering at the local library and school, from serving our church, from striving to be a good son, a good godfather, a good friend, a good neighbor, and from striving to be a good husband to my husband. I’m not a saint by any means (note the use of “striving” :-)), but I know in my heart which are the better parts of my nature, and which aims make God smile, and that includes my marriage (at least the times when I come close to being a good husband). When I stand at judgment, there will be plenty to condemn, but being gay and striving to be a good husband to my husband will count on the good side of the scales. I say this not in defiance of God, but in complete serenity and certainty that God will recognize the goodness in His creation.

Georgia, you caution me against selfishness, and that’s something I worry about often. I worry sometimes about being too self-indulgent — should we be taking a vacation or spending on nicer things for our house when we could be giving more to charity? should I be indulging in a hobby when I could be doing more for others? And those are certainly areas where rationalization can creep in. But I just don’t see selfishness in my exchanging vows of lifelong loving commitment with another man. Do you think that marriage is a selfish thing? I see it as an ongoing challenge to practice altruism, to put someone else before yourself. Ideally, we should put all others before ourselves, but we know our fallible selves can’t come close to that. But I think practicing with one person teaches us the habit, and hopefully strengthens our better natures toward others. I’d also add that I don’t think that God intends for us to be completely selfless, in some ascetic self-denying sense. God gave us the capacity for joy (the good kind) so that we would seek it. Otherwise it would be nonsensical to “love our neighbors as we love ourselves”. The commandment requires that we do both.


Tom Chatt — June 11, 2008 @ 4:40 am

Another Tom asks “What should the role of the state be?” The role of the state should be merely to recognize marriage for legitimate public purposes, such as the legal issues of who gets to inherit my property when I die, and who gets to make decisions for me when I’m in the hospital and incapacitated. That’s essentially what legal recognition comes down to. The question for California voters next November is not whether gay people can marry. We already can and we already do. Seven years ago I stood before God, family, church family, and friends, and exchanged vows of lifelong loving commitment with my husband. Socially, most people recognize and accept us as a married couple, and those who don’t are free not to. People who disapprove of us are free to speak their disapproval publicly, and to urge others not to emulate our example. Regardless of how Californians vote next November, none of that will be affected. The proposition does not affect whether we can devote our lives to each other, nor does it affect whether others can criticize our life choices. Really the only thing on the table next November is whether, when I am in the hospital, my husband will be accepted as my legal next of kin, or they will say “sorry, you’re legally a stranger, go find his parents or his brother, but we’re not talking to you, and you can’t see him”. Anyone who thinks it’s their moral duty to come between my husband and me when one of us is in the emergency room should vote “yes” in November. But otherwise, if you believe the state should recognize everyone’s own choices about who they join their finances with, and who should make decisions on their behalf, then vote “no”.


Robert J. Bell — June 11, 2008 @ 10:26 am

I find it amazing that a simple question can be turned into an on going argument over the place of the church in one’s life. What we are dealing with is a state’s right to regulate marriage, not the church’s. You either agree with California or you don’t. Let us dwell on the church/state thing elsewhere. Like the voting booth. We know what is coming in the political future, but why hurry it along by spending too much time on how things are to be done and so little on who will see to it? Wake up, human nature is not going to be changed by a lot of people simply wanting it to. I have seen both sides of this issue, having had a gay family member. I say we live and let live, so long as we can all live together.


Catherine — June 11, 2008 @ 10:36 am

From what I have read here, one thing HAS to be set straight. God’s love is OFFERED to everyone - however, “Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 7: 21 (emphasis added) Yes, God, the Father, WANTS everyone in heaven; however, it is up to us, the human individual, who decides what path we will take. Now, there are so many dynamics to why a person is or isn’t a homosexual. Some, hey, they truly are genetically a mess (hermaphrodites, men with Kleinfelter’s Syndrome, etc.), but that in no way will make way for those who, without medical cause, KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY CHOOSE a lifestyle that is contrary to the Bible. Now, if you don’t believe in the Bible, then this will not matter to you one bit. However, there is a God out there, there is a plan of salvation, there is an organization to this planet and the life that exists here. So, we can say in all our arrogance that we can do what we want, say what we want, be who we want, and God will just take us because he has to…well, that is a very dangerous place to hang your hat. God is to be reverenced, loved, and most of all RESPECTED. It is HIS will that we must adhere to, whether we agree or not (what arrogance to think we can disagree with the creator of all things). So, to put this politely, God does love and he does offer salvation to everyone - gay or straight; but it is our responsibility to either accept (and thereby do the will of God) or reject (doing our own thing) his will and salvation.


Pamela — June 11, 2008 @ 10:48 am

tom IF YOU THINK YOUR GONNA BE SAVED BEING GAY YOU ARE
SO WRONGG!!
rePENT YOUR SELF


Catherine — June 11, 2008 @ 11:33 am

Hmmm, not sure what you mean here, but ok. People who are hermaphrodites and people who have Kleinfelter’s are NOT gay. They are genetically male AND female. So, if by genetic design you cannot tell if they are man or woman, who are we to say they are gay? This is a HUGELY misunderstood topic in the arena of homosexuality. This does NOT put these people into the same category as “gay” - as my definition of gay/homosexual is someone that makes the choice to be with the same sex partner WITHOUT OBVIOUS medical reason.


Elder Romel Viel — June 12, 2008 @ 3:43 pm

In conconance with Mr. Alan Reinach’s 05/30/2008 article on heterosexuality, I am delighted to publish the following letter recently addressed by me to The New York Secretary of State. May The GOD of our initial ancestors Adam and Eve continue supporting us in our very humble efforts to do His sovereign will.

Sincerely submitted by:

Seventh-day Adventist Christian Elder ROMEL VIEL,
NARLA Student Member.
===================================================================

From: Mr. Romel Viel,
Alumnus Student at Medgar Evers College of The City
University of New York.
P. O. Box 250-628,
Brooklyn, New York 11225, USA
Phone: (718) 390-3543 [Voice Mail]
E-mail: mrromelviel@yahoo.com

June 5, 2008

To: Mrs. LORRAINE VASQUEZ,
Secretary of State for The State of New York.
Albany, New York 12231, USA

Dear Madam Secretary of State,

I write to congratulate you on the outstanding work you are doing in the New York Department of State. I would also like to take this opportunity to call your personal attention to the following three (3) points as they relate to my function of licensed Notary Public or Constitutional Officer for The State of New York.

First of all, please accept my thanks for the piece of mail emanating from the State of New York Department of State received by me during the month of March of this current year of grace. Included in the said correspondence was a copy of The New York State Constitution which stipulates, among other things, on page eleven (11) that “In case of vacancy in the office of lieutenant-governor alone, or if the lieutenant-governor shall be impeached, absent from the state or otherwise unable to discharge the duties of office, the temporary president of the senate shall perform all the duties of lieutenant-governor during such vacancy or inability.” I, therefore, am asking you to initiate any actions deemed appropriate so that Mr. JOSEPH BRUNO who has been doing such a great work as Majority Leader and President pro tempore of The New York State Senate be actually empowered to fulfill the duties of lieutenant-governor of The State of New York ASAP.

Secondly, it has come to my attention that on May 14, 2008, the current governor of New York would have decided to address a memo to state agencies suggesting them to recognize homosexual marriages which seem to have been performed in the state of Massachusetts and, perhaps, elsewhere. Let me, as a private citizen who was invited on 08/07/2006 to vote for Lawyers Eliot Spitzer and David Paterson that were respectively running to become New York governor and lieutenant-governor as of January 2007, precise that it was never my intent to vote for those two politicians to now suggest that only homosexual NY residents would–perhaps–be set free to violate The State of New York Constitution. Furthermore, in a letter dated 10/10/2006 and personally addressed to me by New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg, he soundly argued that he does “not believe that government should be in the business of telling people who they can and cannot marry.” Thus, it would be inappropriate for Mayor Bloomberg to change his mind…
…/…
Mr. Romel Viel,
Alumnus Student at Medgar Evers College of The City University of New York.
P. O. Box 250-628, Brooklyn, New York 11225, USA
E-mail: mrromelviel@yahoo.com; Phone: (718) 390-3543 [Voice Mail]

Mrs. Lorraine Vasquez 06/05/2008 Page 2 of 2

Simply stated, I would like to ask you to respectively contact Mr. CHARLES RANGEL who is the Dean of the New York Congressional Delegation and Eng. MICHAEL BLOOMBERG so that they can ask Gov. D. PATERSON to follow the footsteps of former New York State Governor GEORGE PATAKI who once clearly declared that from immemorial times the institution of marriage has always been between one man and one woman and the role of The New York State Governor’s Office is to uphold such a morally appropriate tradition or spiritual heritage.

Thirdly, I would like to remind you that as it now stands, neither The Constitution of the United States of America, nor The Constitution of the State of New York make provision for such heterosexual people as ourselves to be regarded or considered as ‘second class’ citizens. For example, if married heterosexual couples can be punished by our African-American Society for adulterous behaviors and for endangering the welfare of minors, homosexuals cannot claim any right to enjoy maximum legal protection even when they are found guilty of consistently violating basic social norms.

In closing, please allow me to remind you that the late Pastor Manuel Vasquez, a former Senior Vice President for Multilingual Ministries at North American Division of General Conference of The worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, would never subscribe to any legislative and/or administrative ruling aimed at encouraging reasonable human beings to do things that even animals refrain from doing. As Secretary of State of New York, your mission is also to ascertain that New York remains The State of the American Empire and that in all parts of the world other people will continue looking at your State as a social refuge where any person can live without having to be homosexual…May GOD cause His greatness to shine upon you.

With warm regards,

Romel Viel, BS,
Alumnus Student at Medgar Evers College of The City University of New York.

Cc: Ms. CHRISTINE QUINN, New York City Council Speaker
New York City Attorney General
Mr. WILLIAM THOMPSON, New York City Comptroller
Mrs. BETSY GOTBAUM, New York City Public Advocate
Mr. MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, New York City Mayor


Marsha — June 12, 2008 @ 4:10 pm

I thought I was done with this issue, but I just read the post by Elder Romel Viel and am confused with this statement - “For example, if married heterosexual couples can be punished by our African-American Society for adulterous behaviors and for endangering the welfare of minors, homosexuals cannot claim any right to enjoy maximum legal protection even when they are found guilty of consistently violating basic social norms.” I don’t get your point about African-American Society punishing anyone for adulterous behavior. What does race have to do with the point you are making?


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 12, 2008 @ 5:00 pm

Marsha, don’t you recognize political hogwash when you read it? Mr. Romel Viel is obviously ignorant of many factors regarding this topic, and I think should be totally disregarded. Actually, California has taken over the so-called prestigious position that he is trying to establish for New York, financially and for Civil Rights.

Don’t worry, any New York laws violating such rights will soon become un-constitutional.

Also, I doubt if any of us know who Pastor Manuel Vasquez, and what he has to do with it, but my opinion is that our world-wide president, Elder Paulsen, would over-rule him. Elder Paulsen has even supported celibate homosexuals to become SDA pastors. To bad the rest of our church can’t grow up.

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Marsha — June 12, 2008 @ 5:03 pm

Thanks Howard for clearing that up for me. :-) Now I’m officially done with this topic.


Georgia — June 12, 2008 @ 6:16 pm

Ok Howard you really want me to believe that Elder Paulsen is all for homosexuals becoming Pastors and preaching the word of GOD from GOD’s house while living with another man? Sex or no sex, marriage or no marriage do you really think that,that is something that GOD would condone?


Michael DePaula — June 12, 2008 @ 6:54 pm

Viel’s letter was honestly the most pretentious piece of work I’ve seen in a long time.

Argument from authority, shameless flattery and more argument from authority (and deceased authority at that)!

*sigh*


wvgirl — June 12, 2008 @ 7:17 pm

When I think of gay rights & gay marriages my thoughts run to my brother in law who was gay & killed himself not too long ago, he claimed we didn’t love him because we told him the scriptures in the bible that forbade same sex intimacy period, but we didn’t Bible thump him in the head with these scriptures he asked for them & then said we were being judgmental. I believe this as one writer I think has already said, this legislation is truly the signs of the times. I heard on 3ABN not sure who, said that if Christ doesn’t come pretty soon He will have to apologize to Sodom & Gommorah because things are so bad. No I am not saying that the legislation is the only thing. I am a victim of sexual abuse from my own father, so there are more things going on than the gay life to be worried about, but really I suppose the only thing anybody should worry about is their own personal relationship with Christ & that is enough to keep any person busy, I know is has me.


Larry M — June 12, 2008 @ 7:28 pm

Some Christians still don’t understand. We do not live in a theocracy. Our founders of this nation made it perfectly clear in the constitution. This nation was founded on getting away from religious tyranny. We cannot force our beleifs, by making moral laws, our beleifs on free moral agents in these United States. Judgement will & always has come from the Almighty in spiritual matters concerning morality. I don’t agree with abortion, homosexual marrige, from a moral attitude. That doen’t mean I or anyone else has the right to force their beleifs, coming from scripture, on others through laws. Especially between consenting adults. It will all be taken care of in judgement. Let us pray for each & everyone of us on this earth for leaving judgement to the Judge, our Savior. Pastor Viel is wrong about making laws governing ones sexual mores. Did you know there are still Puritan laws on the books back east where it is unlawful to have sex in any other position other than missionary style? Also outside of your bedroom in your own house. We are only commissioned to be witnesses & spread the gospel in love.


Howard 'duke' Holtz — June 12, 2008 @ 11:23 pm

Georgia, feast your eyes on this for now. It is from the “Let’s Talk” website (Copyright © 2005 General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, office of the president speaking to our youth.) Praise the Lord for leaders with compassion and foresight.

“I feel God wants me to become a pastor, but I am gay. What should I do?

You should follow God’s leading. Following His leading, though, not only refers to preparing for and entering His ministry, but adopting His personal plan for your life. The Bible in several places (Leviticus 20:7-21; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) speaks strongly against gay or lesbian sexual relationships–living an active homosexual lifestyle. This means that the biblical expectation is for those who believe they have a homosexual orientation to live a celibate life or to limit sexual activity to within a husband-and-wife marriage situation. This is true whether the homosexual person is a pastor or not, but as a pastor and leader of God’s people, obedience to His will is paramount.

If people, particularly church members, discover you are homosexual, they may not understand that you can be a pastor or even a Christian. You will need God’s grace and a forgiving spirit to handle these times. But if God wants you to be a pastor, He will give you the strength and the courage to be what He wants you to be. Following His will for you will lead to a more fulfilling life that you can imagine.”

Howard ‘duke’ Holtz


Georgia — June 13, 2008 @ 12:21 am

Thank you for the information Howard. However this person is not saying that a person who is homosexual can become a pastor and remain in their current state (meaning living as a homosexual.) He further presses the point that one must be obedient to the will of GOD. Which is not what I understood you to say. Anyway for this to happen to someone who is homosexual there must be a clear conviction of the heart that GOD did not make them Homosexual. However allow me to be clear on this. If anyone wants to change their life and goes to the LORD that is the greatest thing that can happen. As you know all of Heaven watches in earnest that every soul might except the free gift of Salvation. As I said I did not understand you to be saying what this artical is saying. I just could not fathom someone standing at the pulpit preaching the word of GOD on homosexuality and then saying but I live with another man. I would add women in here to but I just don’t believe women were meant to preach. Now I am not inferring that women were or are not meant to teach or be an active part of the church. Because we all know that women have done wonderful things in the church. What I am hearing this person say is let GOD handle your life and He will lead you where you need to go.


Tom Wilks — June 13, 2008 @ 12:50 am

WELL were do we start Here why not First of all you see this is what makes me mad at you people is that you are out to mass a mans life up just becouse he will not marry you people so to get revange you are going to take him to court if he want do it find someone that will but you want us to be nice to you but stuff like that makes us mad if you want to be gay then do it and leave the men along that want marry you and you see I dont hate you I hate your life still you see you still belong in the closet and one other thing God did not make you that way it is your chose God made Man AND Woman not man and man and Dont push it on us that dont like it And for the ones that dont like what is going on then get off your but and quit talking about onthis computer and go do some thing about it go fight it even if you have to go to the Whitehouse


Michael DePaula — June 13, 2008 @ 12:56 am

Georgia, if I may say so, it sounds like EVEN IF this God you worship did exist, he wouldn’t be a very pleasant fellow to be around let alone worship.

If we create an analog to this God, we would be asked to imagine a father who gives his kid a tennis racket, “tests” him to see if he’ll use it (already knowing the answer), then gives the kid a disease to ensure he will die prematurely because he made the choice to use the tennis racket.

In addition, the father gives the son the propensity and desire to use the tennis racket whenever he can and finally threatens the son with a tortuous second death by fire if he continues to use it.

Hardly a father worth loving…

When we step back a minute and realize that the “choice” the son makes isn’t really a bad choice at all, but one very central to what it means to be healthy, normal human then we will realize the absurdity of the whole moral play.


Michael DePaula — June 13, 2008 @ 12:59 am

Tom Wilks, you’ve got it backwards. No one is forcing you to do anything. It is the many people in your “Christian” group who are actively trying to deny gays the same legal rights as other married couples.

If you really want gays to “stay out of your hair”, then vote in favor of their equality rights whenever the chance presents itself to you.

Have a great day.


Angie — June 13, 2008 @ 11:13 am

Well i personally say if you care so much about your life? Why dont you , start by getting close to God, and try hard for ETERNAL life? Why living in a gay moment that soon God will destroy?

God dint make you gay!! you madeyour self gay!!! and dont blame God for what you did!!and if your a seventh day adventist and you think your gonna be save being gay your wrong you have to repent your self!! before is to late
We love you in Jesus but THAT IS ABONIATI0ON TO HIS NAME!!
CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT GAY RIGHTS AND START TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE NEEED TO BE REALLY FOCUS ON !!JESUS


AJ — June 13, 2008 @ 11:30 am

AMEN angie. EVERYONE needs to focus on Jesus and God! SEEK ye first the kingdom of GOD………. you should know the rest.

PLEASE Everyone reading these, realize that just because one person claims to be seventh day adventist doesn’t mean that they are converted AND……It does NOT mean that I or Other seventh day adventists do these unGodly things. No one is perfect but I would be scared to claim myself as one of Gods Representatives and children If I was doing something that was strickly spoken against by GOD himself. The Bible says it is VERY BAD to be a stumbling block to others lost or barely converted, to anyone for that matter. I see a lot of so called SDA’s on here that don’t represent us as a whole very well and I AM PRAYING VERY HARD FOR ALL OF US to seek to be closer to God than to sit here and argue over some VERY CLEAR TRUTHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We make our choices and will be given Just rewards accordingly when He returns soon. Lets get back to studying our Bibles instead of the computer chaos online these days.
If some are mad at me I will continue to pray, but you have to forgive me as I forgive you or you wont make it.

BY the way in the end it is all about worship. Who & When. Lets study the seal of God so we don’t choose the Mark of the Beast!!!!!


Larry M — June 13, 2008 @ 11:55 am

To Angie & womever beleives that people make themselves with fallen tendencies better wake up. How we judge is how we will be judged. Maybe you aren’t clear on the fall in Eden. Maybe you don’t understand heredity. Why do you think the lineage of our Savior was given. To show what our Savior fought in the fallen flesh He was in, to be our Righteousness & example of condemning sin in that flesh by not giving in to the yearnings of the flesh. King David is in that lineage with his lust & murdering heart. A prostitute is in that lineage with all her failings. Please be more compassionate because you are just as fallen as any murderer, child molester, homosexual, gossiper, fornicater, lover of self, etc… Michael De Paula, love you my man. I mean that.


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